D&D 5E Role playing and wargaming

Why would you expect to get better at fighting, by doing something other than fighting?

Or coming at that from the other direction, if your table doesn't particularly care about fighting, then why would it matter to you whether or not you gain levels? If you're playing a game of courtly intrigue, which eventually culminates in one battle against the evil chancellor, then how would that story suffer in any way if the party stayed level 1 for the entire duration?
Gaining levels does make other abilities better, though, especially spellcasting - which is not entirely about combat.

As for the first question you ask, I think there is a genre convention in much D&D (like other action adventure stories), that personal physical prowess is part-and-parcel of being an "A"-list rather than "B"-list personality. That would be a reason why PCs gain levels and get better at fighting even though their "A"-list status is grounded primarily in non-fighting antics.
 

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These are headed "Successful Adventures". They open with the words "Few players are so skillful at fantasy role plauing games as to not benefit from advice," and they conclude with the words "If you believe that Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is a game worth playing, you will certainly find it doubly so if you play well."
I think this serves in excellent contrast to part of the opening from 5E, which starts with "There’s no winning and losing in the Dungeons & Dragons game—at least, not the way those terms are usually understood," and ends with "The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

Sometimes I wonder what Gygax would say about the idea that everyone being killed by the dragon still counts as a win, as long as everyone had fun. But then I realize that I don't actually care, because it would still just be his opinion.
 
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I think this serves in excellent contrast to part of the opening from 5E, which starts with "There’s no winning and losing in the Dungeons & Dragons game—at least, not the way those terms are usually understood," and end with "The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

Sometimes I wonder what Gygax would say about the idea that everyone being killed by the dragon still counts as a win, as long as everyone had fun. But then I realize that I don't actually care, because it would still just be his opinion.

After reading his biography, I ended up liking him a lot and really regretting not getting his autograph in 92. I think it is very safe to say that this grew into more than he would have imagined and would have been happy to say it belonged to the players.

I like to take in what he wrote
While looking at it with 35 years of gaming experience. His bringing together of elements and his breadth of knowledge impresses me to the present.

With that said, I think it is only appropriate that the approach to the game changes over time as long as the
Kernel is there: mutual enjoyment of a shared and mutually created story...
 

This is a long post, mostly of quotes from Lewis Pulsipher (but also some others) writing about D&D in the late 70s and early 80s.

First Lewis Pulsipher on the "philosophy" of D&D play:

[sblock]From White Dwarf 3, 1977 (I'm quoting from Best of WD v1, pp 45-47):

D&D players can be divided into two groups, those who want to play the game as a game and those who want to play it as a fantasy novel, ie direct escapism through abandonment of oneself to the flow of play . . . The game-players may emphasise player skill in players-vs-monsters (and sometimes other players) or they may prefer players-vs-puzzles (riddles, traps, mazes, etc) . . . The escapists can be divided into those who prefer to be told a story by the referee, in effect, with themselves as protagonists, and those who like a silly, totally unbelieveable game. In either case, there are two ways this can be accomplished. One is by innumerable dice rolls and situations which call for chance . . . - lottery D&D. The other is by manipulation of the situation by the referee, however he sees fit. In California, . . . this leads to referees who make up more than half of what happens, what is encountered and so on, as the game progresses rather than doing it beforehand. In either case the player is a passive receptor, with little control over what happens. . .

I personally consider the silly/escapist style to be both boring and inferior for any campaign, though all right occasionally for a weird evening. . . . I also prefer monster fighting to puzzle solving. . . .

One of the most destructive notions I've encountered in D&D is the belief that 'anything goes'. . . . Even in a fantasy game, moderation and self-discipline are virtues necessary to top refereeing. While campaigns may be run on other bases, I believe that a skill-game campaign is likeluy to satisfy people more in the long run. . . . The referee must think of himself as a friendly computer with discretion. . . . [T]his means that the referee should not make up anything important after an adventure has begun. He should only operate monsters encountered according to logic and, where necessary, dice rolls. . . . Every time the referee manipulates the game on the basis of his ominscience, he reduces the element of skill. . . .

The most basic of all D&D player decisions is the decision to fight or avoid a fight. If there is no way to avoid a fight, for lack of information, players are hamstrung. . . . In a campaign wehere using [detection] spells is a reasonable tactic, those who fail to do so die sooner or later. And they deserve it.​

From a few years later (1981, WD 23, 24 and 27 - I'm quoting from Best of WD v2, pp 10-13, 18):

D&D is a "role-playing" fantasy game, that is to say, each player acst as an individual hero, wizard, priest, or other character . . .

In 1972 Dave Arneson described the original campaign to me, although I didn't know it would become D&D. It sounded like a normal armies vs armies campaign, but the role-playing element existed in the background. . . .

The most important thing to remember about D&D is that the nature of play depends on the DM. If you try it once and dislike it, in many cases it will be dislike of a particular style rather than of the game itself. . . .

D&D style ranges from the "simulation" through "wargame" to "absurd" and finaly "novel". As one moves along this continuum the DM's procedurse become less rigorous . . .

The "wargame" style is how D&D was designed to be played, though this doesn't mean you must play it this way. Players don't plauy against each other, but can still "win" or "lose" according to whether they survive and prosper. As much as possible, all that happens should be believable . . .

[T]he "absurd" style condones unbelievable occurrences. . . .

Finally we have the "novel" style. In effect, the DM writes an oral novel in which the players are participating characters. This can be pretty bad, but the players don't mind because they're helping to "write" it. In such games the DM may make up everything as he goes along.

As one passes along the continuum one finds that players are most passive in the novel style and most active in the wargame style. (The simulations style stresses realism so much that the characters tend to be hostage to the dice, the rules and the DM.) When you choose a style, keep the preferences of your potential players in mind. . . .

Some DMs rely on fighting to provide action and interest to the players, while others rely on a variety of puzzles. The average DM or player prefers fighting with an occasional puzzle to vary the pac. Unless you're good at devising puzzles, you'll probably take the same line. Beware: a fe players become bored with frequent fighting, but most become bored with numerous puzzles. . . .

Many wargamers dislike luck, for who wants to play well and still "lose"? D&D can never be a game without luck, but the DM can choose the extent to which luck dominates a game. My objective is to force the players to make choices. The more often they must choose, the more often the skilful player can make the better choice and increase his chance of survival. For example, some DMs allow a sword with detecting powers to operate at all times. . . . Better to allow the sword to detect only when the owner stops for a few rounds to concentrate on detection. . . .

Most wargamers tend to "put themselves" into the gmae and the character's goals are the goals the player would pursue in a fantasy world. . . .

Many non-wargamers, on the other hand, create elaborate personae for their characters different from their own. The idea is to play in accordance with the strictures of the persona. For example, if the character has a low intelligence the player will refuse to mention things which he is intelligent enough to perceive but the character would not. If for some reason the character is terrified of rats he will flee from them, even though the player knows there is little danger.

One player succeeds by acting out an interesting persona, while the other succeeds by acquiring make-believe power, wealth, or whatever. There is nothing wrong with either method, they are just different ways of viewing the game. The two kinds of player can play together, though with some friction, as long as the DM does not force players to play in persona. . . .

Every D&D player must adapt [sic] a persona to some extent, unless he plays only one characgter alignment, the one corresponding to his own.​
[/sblock]
Some changes of tone and description are evident between the two quotes: the advocacy for "wargaming" style becomes less strident, for instance. But there is a strong commonality as well, including a recognition that styles of D&D differ. What Pulsipher calls the "wargaming style" is the style of play actually explained and modelled by Gygax in his PHB and DMG. What Pulsipher calls the "novel" style, with detailed development of distinctive PC personalities, is what the 2nd ed AD&D PHB advocates. (Though it doesn't say much about how to go about it.) Note that Pulsipher regards both styles as roleplaying, because by that word he means engaging the gameworld through the vehicle of an individual character. So, for him, figuring out how to make one's way through a frictionless corridor with super-tetanus spiked pits is roleplaying, just as much as haggling over the price of rations with a merchant.

Of course there are other approaches to playing D&D that Pulsipher doesn't describe - eg many of the 4e players who post on these boards play in one of the following two styles: either a "light skill" style which is quite different from Pulsipher's wargaming style, because it emphasises clever "moves" within a given situation rather than the sort of planing and informed decision-making that he stresses (and that Gygax stresses on pp 107-9 of his PHB); or a sort-of scene-framing style which is often associated with "indie" RPGing and is an attempt to get the "novel" experience without the player passivity that Pulsipher associated with his "novel" style.

It's also worth noting that, at the same time Pulsipher was writing, there were other voices.

[sblock]Eg consider this from Roger Musson (also 1981, in WD):

D&D in its highest form allows players the fun of actually taking part in a fantasy "novel", but not as such a high level as to demand that each player should be Sir John Gielgud.

(To digress: I believe that the restrictions on some character classes, thought the might be viewed as disadvantages, are more the reverse. Restrictions make it easier to play "in character" by dictating necessary attitudes. . . .) . . .

If the game is to generate the same interest as a novel, it must have the same ingredients: characters and plot. . . .

[A]ny DM is responsible for what he says a room contains . . . [N]ever feel obliged to uphold a random determination [of dungeon contents]. . . .

[T]here is a very good alternative for improvisation: the Emergency Room Register . . . If players move into an area [of the dungeon] you haven't populated, and open a room, select a room randomly from the appropriate list in the Emergency Room Register. . . . It is true that if they had opened the door three down on the right instead of the door they were at, it would have made no difference to whaty they would have found but as long as they don't know that, it won't hurt them. . . . In D&D it isn't necessary to play by the book, but it is essential that the players shall always think you are.​
[/sblock]
A lot of this sounds very "modern" - especially the comment about restrictions as advantages rather than disadvantages, something that HERO and GURPS still haven't worked out but that more recent games like FATE, Burning Wheel and the like have. But it is the context of a series of articles about mega-dungeon design. And it still assumes that the basic activity of the game is exploring the dungeon, then looting it.

Finally, some comments from the same time period about the frequency of combat in the typical D&D game (in addition to those already seen in the Pulsipher quotes):

[sblock]
From Roger Musson, WD 15 1979:

uppose you have a moderately strong party interested in hauling some decent treasure out of fifth level. The first problem is getting the treasure; few DMs are going to let a party trick a monster out of its goodies, so that means a fight. . . . Now they have a second problem - getting it out. And getting back up all those stairs without meeting a wandering monster is not going to be easy. IN most dungeons the chances of meeting a really dangerous wanderer are high, and in many dungeons monsters attack automatically.


From Gygax's DMG, p 61:

Combat is a common pursuit in the vast majority of adventures, and the participants in the campaign deserve a chance to exercise intelligent.choice during such confrontations. As hit points dwindle they can opt to break off the encounter and attempt to flee. With complex combat systems which stress so-called realism and feature hit location, special damage, and so on, either this option is severely limited or the rules are highly slanted towards favoring the player characters at the expense of their opponents.​

From Gygax's PHB, pp 104, 106, 109:

The clever character does not attack first and ask questions (of self or monster) later, but every adventure will be likely to have combat for him or her at some point. . . .

[C]lerics' major aims are to use their spell abilities to aid during any given encounter, fighters aim to engage in combat, magic-users aim to cast spells, thieves aim to make gain by stealth, and monks aim to use their unusual talents to come to successful ends. If characters gain treasure by pursuit of their major aims, then they are generally entitled to a full share of earned experience points awarded by the DM. . . .

Avoid unnecessary encounters[/i.] This advice usually means the difference between success and failure when it is followed intelligently. Your party has an objective, and wandering monsters are something which stand between them and it. The easiest way to overcome such difficulties is to avoid the interposing or trailing creature if at all possible. Wandering monsters typically weaken the party through use of equipment and spells against them, and they also weaken the group by inflicting damage. Very few are going to be helpful; fewer still will have anything of any value to the party. Run first and ask questions later.
[/sblock]
There are some tensions in what Gygax has to say - eg if fighters get full XP when they seek out combat, are they penalised for fleeing even if that is the clever option? (On p 87 of his DMG, Gygax describes the following as POOR roleplaying: "[c]lerics who refuse to help and heal or do not remain faithful to their deity, fighters who hang back from combat or attempt to steal, or fail to boldly lead, magic-users who seek to engage in melee or ignore magic items they could employ in crucial situations, thieves who boldly engage in frontal attacks or refrain from acquisition of an extra bit of treasure when the opportunity presents itself".)

Still, the net implication of these quotes from the late 70s and early 80s is that combat was understood to be a typical part of play, because most monsters had to be fought if they were to be looted, and wandering monsters couldn't always be avoided and hence at least sometimes had to be fought.
 

I think this serves in excellent contrast to part of the opening from 5E, which starts with "There’s no winning and losing in the Dungeons & Dragons game—at least, not the way those terms are usually understood," and end with "The group might fail to complete an adventure successfully, but if everyone had a good time and created a memorable story, they all win."

Sometimes I wonder what Gygax would say about the idea that everyone being killed by the dragon still counts as a win, as long as everyone had fun. But then I realize that I don't actually care, because it would still just be his opinion.
Saelorn, I share your sense of contrast.

You can also see this contrast playing out in concrete ways - look at the complaints from many more hardcore players about the encounter difficulty guidelines in 5e. Another way of making sense of that is that 5e doesn't really emphasise skilled play. (And hence won't actually see too many parties cripsed by dragons.) Rather, it emphasises the experience of "being there", in the story, and the mechanics (including the combat mechanics) are as much devices for working out the details of what happens while the PCs are there, as for allowing the players to "win" by using them well.

I think it is only appropriate that the approach to the game changes over time as long as the
Kernel is there: mutual enjoyment of a shared and mutually created story...
I don't think that what you describe is the kernel, though. The mutual enjoyment of "wargamers" isn't in the shared and mutually created story - it's in beating the dungeon!

Look at the actual play reports from the G-series tournament, for instance. The winners of that tournament weren't primarily enjoying the story, they were enjoying being bloody good wargamers! Here's an extract (from Dragon 19, reporting the 1978 Origins tournament):

[sblock]As the fight before the king proceeded with little damage to either side, the ballista crew managed to reload. Three blasts from the cold wand while they were leading, however, killed them before they could fire. While the battle continued, our earth elemental sprang into being and began moving towards the hell hounds surrounding the king. When the six giants showed signs of weakening, we noticed that the female giants began preparing to enter the battle. At this point, the ranger and MU who were in the process of turning the ballista against the king and giants called out a warning of another group of hell hounds and giants approaching from our rear. The thief began climbing the wall at his unhasted speed and moving across the ceiling to position himself over the king. On the first part of the next melee round the elf/ fighter/ MU killed her giant and turned to cast a slow spell on the group coming up on our rear. The ranger then fired the ballista and with great skill(?) struck the king as the 9th level MU hit the slowed hell hounds and giants with his cold wand. The elemental then passed through our ranks and began engaging the hell hounds and giantesses guarding the king. Another giant fell and the thief moved closer into position.

While the MU continued to blast with his cold wand and the thief moved across the ceiling, the elemental began crushing the hell hounds. The next round the 12th level cleric dropped his giant and shouted “Rush the king!” The giantesses moved to block our way, but, being both invisible and hasted we easily avoided their awkward blows. As the thief dropped on the king, the elf, dwarf, cleric, and fighter all also struck and King Snurre feel dead. The thief then cut his head off and placed it in his bag of holding while the others turned and killed the queen. As more fire giants began entering the room, a previously unnoticed group of gnolls rushed to attack. The round was called as plans were being hastily made for escape.

DM: Here the round ended, luckily for the players. Snurre had not really been dead, only pretending, but the bit about the head confirmed the apparent death. I was really surprised at this bit of shennanigans until I found out that it was a regular part of any coup they staged. I was firmly convinced that the group would not have escaped alive, but after reading the following paragraphs, I'm not so sure. . . .​

Our DM (and other DM’s) have expressed the opinion that if play had continued our group would not have survived. We, however, are of a different opinion, and would like to show here just how we would have effected our escape.

As the game was called, out hasted party had just killed the queen on the first part of the melee turn. At the cleric’s shout of “Rush the king!” the ranger had started to move and was at this point next to the giantesses and hell hounds engaged with the elemental. The 9th level MU was blasting the group entering the door with his wand of cold, the 12th level MU was directing the elemental, the thief was placing the king’s head in his bag, and all others were not engaged. On the second half of our melee turn then, the 12th level cleric casts his commune for the quickest way out, while the ranger casts sneezing dust into the hell hounds and giantesses. Also the elf fighter/ MU casts an ice storm just outside the MU casts see invisible to locate Obmi, while the dwarf, fighter, and 9th level cleric fight the gnolls.

On the first part of the next melee turn, the MU yells to the ranger where Ombi is and she moves towards him. The 12th level cleric yells to the group which way is the fastest way out and the group slowly (comparatively) begins to move in that direction, slashing, hacking, and
etc. When the ranger reaches Obmi, on the second half of the melee, she dusts him with appearance dust. The fighter then moves to join her and help subjue him. The rest of the group still slowly moves towards our excape route, slashing and hacking, while the 9th level MU resumes hitting those enemies entering the doorway.

The next melee round has the fighter and ranger knocking out Obmi (who is not in haste) tying him up and forcing a potion of invisibility down his throat. This should take up both halves of our melee turn. The rest of the group continues fighting both halves. At the beginning of the next melee round the ranger takes Obmi, the fighter calls out to our thief
and finds his position while we all fight. The second half has the fighter grabbing up the thief and all those fighting disengaging and preparing to run.

On the next turn, all, including the 12th level MU, run for the exit. We figure that even if the elemental is not yet dead, he will have to fight his way through the remaining giants to follow us, and if that doesn’t stop him for awhile, then he still cannot keep up with us in our hasted state. From this point on we all run. It will take us less than two melee turns to reach the exit. Because of our hasted state, all this action has taken only a few melee turns. This is fast enough to insure our avoiding those coming up from deeper in Snurre’s halls. I should also point out that at the time the game was called, no one in the group was more than 30% damaged, and all had at least two extra healing potions each.[/sblock]
This is not the only way to play the game. It's not really my preferred approach - I'm a terrible wargaming referee (I don't have the patience) and I'm a mediocre wargaming player (mostly again because of the lack of patience). But it's definitely a thing, and it was far more prominent in 1978 than in 1988.
 

LOADS OF SNIPPING

And have you actually read pp 107-9 of his PHB? Have you read the articles I referred to in early White Dwarf?

If you and [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] are denying that that style of play ever existed, or that it has relatively little in common with the sort of play espoused by a 1990s module like Dead Gods, or even a contemporary PF adventure path, then I'm not sure what to say - I've got pages of essays by Gygax, Pulsipher and others that talk about it, that talk about the differences between it and the style of those later modules, not to mention my own lived experience.

From this I infer that you were not playing D&D in the late 70s or early 80s, when these rules were not "relics" but were current.

There's nothing wrong with being younger than me!, but I'm not sure then what exactly you are arguing with me about. Are you trying to tell me that discussions in the late 70s/early 80s of the difference between "skilled" play and "story/character-style" play were all confused because there was no difference to be talked about? Are you telling me that the play advice in Gygax's PHB, pp 107-109, is no different from the play advice in the 2nd ed PHB? Are you saying that you can't see any difference between White Plume Mountain and Dead Gods in terms of the sort of play the seem oriented towards?

Seems to have been some minor miscommunication.
First off, yeah, I’m young.
My first books were 3.5
I could never find a game, until about 2010 when I got into a local college game of 4e
I’ve been DMing since about 2011? And I jumped into 5e immediately, because I didn’t like how difficult I found customizing 4e to be.

So, never read any of that, except in various blogs, threads and ect when they tend to come up.

However, I was never arguing either side of the argument. Instead I was trying to point out that it is completely possible that due to a vast conflux of different experiences and desires and emphasis, two people could read the same book and come away with vastly different ideas.

I’m an English major, it is essentially my field of study to look at things like that. And it can be an interesting thing, but if I remember the genesis of this discussion you guys aren’t arguing that the game was never played that way or this way, or that it hasn’t changed, or even that AD&D wasn’t vastly different, but simply which exact year Gary Gygax started thinking differently about the game.

It seems like a minor quibble over whether or not someone interpreted that single paragraph to mean more or less, and I doubt there is going to be a consensus. There are many more interesting conversations I think than whether it was hinted at and played that way in 1e or 2e, the progression is still the same.


Class progression, especially now that bounded accuracy has placed the burden of advancement more squarely on your Hit Points, is mostly about how well you can fight. Why would you expect to get better at fighting, by doing something other than fighting?

Or coming at that from the other direction, if your table doesn't particularly care about fighting, then why would it matter to you whether or not you gain levels? If you're playing a game of courtly intrigue, which eventually culminates in one battle against the evil chancellor, then how would that story suffer in any way if the party stayed level 1 for the entire duration?

Actor Feat and others, ASI’s for increasing abilities tied to social skills, access to spells and abilities tailored to social situations, proficiency bonuses.

We do still focus on combat, almost too much in some cases, but we can’t always have a rip-roaring dungeon with combat every session, and I don’t know how to calculate XP appropriate to traps, social encounters, Good Roleplay.

In addition, I still play mostly at the college. We have 4 hour sessions, weekly, and a game lasts a maximum of two semesters. And sometimes people miss because they have a final paper due, or something else.

I prefer to keep everyone the same level, and no one wants to not level up for a month because they missed a session and then we had a non-combat night around the town. Especially when a game may only last about 7 months total. And it keeps bookkeeping down. Honestly, I don’t see any problem EXP can solve for me and my group that isn’t already handled better (for us) by the milestone system.


I don't think that what you describe is the kernel, though. The mutual enjoyment of "wargamers" isn't in the shared and mutually created story - it's in beating the dungeon!

Isn’t it a mutual story though? The fact that these guys (I’m assuming guys) when interviewed were able to talk out their plan precisely, don’t you think they talked about that win, of that sense of accomplishment?

Sure, they might not have “high art” literary stories, but the story they tell of killing that king and clinching the victory right as the buzzer rang, and knowing for certain that they would have only done better if the buzzer hadn’t rung and they had been able to flee as planned.

I bet that is a mutually crafted and mutually enjoyed story, beginning, middle, end and characters. Not something I’d give more than 2 or 3 stars on Amazon, but hey, it’s always better in person.
 

I don't think that what you describe is the kernel, though. The mutual enjoyment of "wargamers" isn't in the shared and mutually created story - it's in beating the dungeon!

Look at the actual play reports from the G-series tournament, for instance. The winners of that tournament weren't primarily enjoying the story, they were enjoying being bloody good wargamers! Here's an extract (from Dragon 19, reporting the 1978 Origins tournament):

And yet, enough importance was attached to the story that it was published as if others would also be interested in it. In fact, although I was not there, my understanding is that story telling, in the form of play/battle/campaign reports, were a staple of wargaming way before D&D was conceived of. Just because they were stories of a very particular type doesn't make them not stories. I do not dispute that skilled play was highly valued, but it was not valued solely for its results (loot, experience, etc.) - the process and its narration were also important.

EDIT: And I see the Chaosmancer has already made the point. I type too slowly.

In the realm of things more speculative, I would suggest that its story telling element probably helped make wargaming amenable to being pasted together with the sci-fi/fantasy fanzine culture that was one of the other threads that were woven together in the birth of fantasy role-playing games.
 
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Isn’t it a mutual story though? The fact that these guys (I’m assuming guys) when interviewed were able to talk out their plan precisely, don’t you think they talked about that win, of that sense of accomplishment?

Sure, they might not have “high art” literary stories, but the story they tell of killing that king and clinching the victory right as the buzzer rang, and knowing for certain that they would have only done better if the buzzer hadn’t rung and they had been able to flee as planned.

I bet that is a mutually crafted and mutually enjoyed story, beginning, middle, end and characters. Not something I’d give more than 2 or 3 stars on Amazon, but hey, it’s always better in person.
And yet, enough importance was attached to the story that it was published as if others would also be interested in it. In fact, although I was not there, my understanding is that story telling, in the form of play/battle/campaign reports, were a staple of wargaming way before D&D was conceived of. Just because they were stories of a very particular type doesn't make them not stories. I do not dispute that skilled play was highly valued, but it was not valued solely for its results (loot, experience, etc.) - the process and its narration were also important.
I'm not sure. I mean, sports players and sports fans like to talk about games, and retell epic moments, and so on. Back when I used to hang out with serious M:tG players they liked to recount things, too - particular plays that went well, or particularly memorable opposing decks.

And nearly everyone whose ever had a wedding, or even been to a few, has a story to tell about it (often something that went contrary to the planning, and that was therefore frustrating at the time but humorous in retrospect).

But I'm not sure that I'd therefore say that the common kernel of being a soccer club or a cricket club, or playing M:tG, or being wedded to someone, is mutually creating stories. Telling stories about their experiences is something people do, but in most of these cases it seems to be a byproduct of doing the actual thing (playing a game, participating in a celebration, etc).
 

This is a long post, mostly of quotes from Lewis Pulsipher (but also some others) writing about D&D in the late 70s and early 80s.

<lots of SNIP>

In the interest of contributing to the collection of thoughts about D&D in the 70s, although it is admittedly not Gygax, here is Mike Carr in the Foreword to the AD&D PHB (one of a list of "guidelines ... to make the game experience more fun for everyone concerned...")

"Get in the spirit of the game, and use your persona to play with a special personality all its own. Interact with the other player characters and non-player characters to give the game campaign a unique flavor and "life"." (2 June 1978)​

FWIW
 

it is completely possible that due to a vast conflux of different experiences and desires and emphasis, two people could read the same book and come away with vastly different ideas.

<snip>

you guys aren’t arguing that the game was never played that way or this way, or that it hasn’t changed, or even that AD&D wasn’t vastly different, but simply which exact year Gary Gygax started thinking differently about the game.

It seems like a minor quibble over whether or not someone interpreted that single paragraph to mean more or less, and I doubt there is going to be a consensus. There are many more interesting conversations I think than whether it was hinted at and played that way in 1e or 2e, the progression is still the same.
Well, I've got two horses in this race:

(1) There are, and have for a long time, been different ways of approaching D&D. And different texts put different approaches front-and-centre. Pages 107-9 of Gygax's PHB, plus the examples of play and advice in his DMG, promote a very different way of playing D&D from that which a module like Dead Gods offers. To the extent that the OP is trying to make this point, I agree with it.

(2) The 2nd ed AD&D conception of "roleplaying" - my guy has bad table manners; my guy wears a felt hat and likes fish; etc - is not the only conception of roleplaying going. And the 2nd ed AD&D conception of mechanics - that we use them (sort of, with a bit of fudging) for combat and climbing, but don't need them for the important stuff like talking to NPCs - is not the only way of thinking about mechanics. (Going even further - I would say that 2nd ed AD&D, by preserving most of Gygax's mechanics but promoting a completely different approach to the game, creates a type of fetishism around what RPG mechanics are for, and should be, that is still a burden on good RPG design.)​

As I think I posted upthread, my own preferred approach to RPGing is neither Gygaxian nor 2nd ed AD&D. But I personally see it as closer to Gygaxian, because it takes the game seriously as a game - something driven by player action declarations made against the backdrop of the fictional situation the GM has presented, and in which the outcome of those action declarations tells us what happens next, and determines whether the players "win" or "lose".

To give just a simple example: if your claim about your character is that s/he is brave, then show me that in mechanical terms. Show me how s/he is resistant to fear. Show me how her morale is unbreakable. If you show me your low-hp thief who has no serious WIS/will save/defence and will fall unconscious at the first turn of the wheel on the rack, I can see how your character might be reckless or foolhardy, but I'm not seeing anything that shows me s/he is brave.

(4e delivers in this respect - you can build your PC to be brave, picking some appropriate feat or power or paragon path or whatever. 5e delivers mostly via a completely different mechanical approach - if your PC is brave, then you can earn inspiration, which you can spend to buff your save or your death saving throw or whatever is appropriate.)

EDIT: A longer, but much better, exposition of these sorts of ideas is Christopher Kubasik's "interactive toolkit" essay, especially part 3 where he distinguishes character from (mere) characterisation.
 
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