roleplaying across the gender line

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As has been said ad nauseum, the reason to care about motivation is to cut off the bad-behaving when they are still at the stage of making up a character.

NPCs are only the people, the PCs are interacting with (or at least I assume he means it this way).

Again, the GM is all-powerful. The GM is the one who decides what gender the NPCs have and what the world it like. It's ludicrous to put nonhuman races into your world, and then piously say that the people in charge HAVE to be male because that's the way it was in 15th-century Europe.

If you're going to mime historical realism, then realize a society where men run the world also has a rather poor attitude towards women who openly seek out sex. Your cute elf flirting with the vizier might get those documents, and then find out that the castle guardsmen are legally entitled to treat her as "fair game" because she was unmarried and wandering around the castle without the protection of a male relative.

Snoweel, I have mixed feelings about having reached the stage in life where people ask "Can you be my mom?" ;)
 

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Snoweel said:
(sigh)

You're the one who's exerting an incredible amount of time and energy in finding excuses for avoiding any meaningful discussion.

You respond to my first post in the thread by quoting paragraphs following them with 'bor-ing'. Then you pretend that you did this only after you had tried 'everything else'. You get called on this lie. So I am avoiding meaningful discussion? That's rich.

Face it, Eel. This is not a formal debate, and I am not obliged to disagree with, still less to rebut, everything you say. It is a free-wheeling discussion, and it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to go off on a tangent, pick up on one point and address it alone, or to be reminded of something not quite relevant. For you to insist on a detailed discussion of everything you write is unreasonable, to do so when your way of discussing a point is to write 'bor-ing' is hypocritical.

Regards,


Agback
 
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Thanee said:
NPCs are only the people, the PCs are interacting with (or at least I assume he means it this way).
I assume exactly the same thing. Why do you think that in all campaigns set in a bronze age or medieval fantasy aventure world most NPCs will be men? I don't see any reason to think that at all.

In fact, I think the simple fact that I run a campaign set in a medieval fantasy adventure world in which most of the NPC's are NOT male makes his statement completely false.
As has been said ad nauseum, the reason to care about motivation is to cut off the bad-behaving when they are still at the stage of making up a character.
Saying something many times doesn't make it less foolish.

Look, if you want to ban men from playing women in your games, go right ahead. If you want to do it because your experience has been that most men do a terrible job and reduce everyone else's fun, that's great. That's even a good reason, says I.

But if you want to pretend you have some ability to acquire insights into WHY people are doing things, insights that don't require you to observe any particular behaviour, then I'm going to argue that you're a fool.

I'm going to argue that against any notion of knowing and judging people by their "motivations". We don't know motivations. We only know what we can observe -- behaviour. And so we should only judge people based on behaviour.

I understand this is an unpopular position. That doesn't make it less wise.
 

Look, if you want to ban men from playing women in your games, go right ahead.

Eh? I'm one of the folks who explicitly allows it in my games. In the D&D game I play in, one guy ONLY plays female characters. Nobody has a problem with this.

I don't think it is in the least "foolish" for a GM, faced with a player she doesn't know well, to ask why they are interested in do something that, for the average player, would be a bit of a challenge.

That's the reason for inquiring about motivation. If you know the person well enough to know he will actually try to roleplay the character, instead of ruining the game by living out Issues with women through his PC, then of course the motivation doesn't matter.
 

In response to your post, barsoomcore, I think you're missing some of my points so I'll clarify:

You'll recall that in my first two posts I did not in any way attack anyone's intellect or sanity nor did I make any generalizations that went beyond "the majority of people I've gamed with" -- so I'm a little bemused by your ad hominem attacks (which I'm not bothering to quote). I explained my house rule; I suggested that the men I have dealt with who are committed to playing women have generally been motivated either by a psychological need I felt uncomfortable meeting or by a desire to exploit certain opportunties.

However, what's done is done. Now I'll adjust to your tone.

"Respond more positively" -- that's great. Just what does that mean, exactly? Okay, I know. You're saying that if she suggests something, he's more likely to believe her because she's a pretty girl. That's complete nonsense. It's nonsense because even if you accept the notion that men are more likely to believe pretty girls

Wrong. Men are more likely to do what attractive women want. Here are the Charisma-based skills I'm talking about: perform, diplomacy, gather information and bluff. Only one of these is about belief: bluff. Even so, I would argue that men will want to believe something an attractive woman says to them.

WHAT?! Most people are male? Where did all the women go? Are they hiding because they can't find players to play them? Are they ashamed of all these great bonuses they get? This is great, really. Great stuff.

What I stated was that most NPCs in bronze-age and medieval fantasy worlds are male. Not most people. Most NPCs. For example, there are more male priests than female priests, more male armourers than female armourers, more male soldiers than female soldiers, more male alchemists than female alchemists. NPCs are a subset of people. An NPC is defined as a person one encounters in the course of adventuring. In fantasy campaigns, males are typically in gender roles which situate them closer to the adventurers.

Perhaps you run an exciting campaign about the machiavelian machinations of the wool carters's guild or the dog eat dog world of wet nursing. I, however, go for more conventional subject matter.

Really, you ought to be charging admission for this -- this is great material. Take it on the road, add some juggling, you've got a heck of an act. Ducks! I'm speechless.

Let's clarify. Ducks are a species in which the males have more prominent ornamental physical characteristics than the females. Humans are a species in which the females have more prominent ornamental physical characteristics than males. Other mammals have retracting breasts; humans females evolved with non-retracting breasts for the primary purpose of prominently displaying secondary sexual characteristics.

And you interpret "positive response" to mean "bonus to Charisma checks". Uh-huh. And the ONLY factor you consider is sexual attraction. Obsess much?

So, can I assume that you believe the mainstream of academic work in biology, communications, anthropology, sociology, paleontology, etc. is wrong? Do I really have to lock you in a dark room and make you watch that Human Animal series on PBS?

Of course, sexual attraction is not the only factor in human relations; however, I'm baffled that because you've discovered it's not the only factor that you've therefore concluded it isn't a factor at all.

But, I'm intrigued, based on your understanding of human behaviour, why is it that there are so many more female models than male models? Why is it that magazine advertizing, whether to a male or female audience vastly favours depiction of women over men? How do you account for this? What do you see going on in night clubs?

The reason I ask is that however much gender differentiation there is in 21st century Western society, it pales in comparison to the gender differentiation in the eras in which fantasy games are set. Medievals society circumscribed where women could go, what they could do, how they could dress, etc. because medievals believed that men could not resist female sexuality. Medieval European laws of gender relations were not much different from modern Islamic fundamentalism. It is in this medieval world that most D&D is situated -- based on a literary genre stemming from medieval romances like Parzifal in which the hero rapes a woman the beginning of the narrative, not to demonstrate some kind of depravity but rather to illustrate his innocence.

I don't think I'm pronoucing a great heresy here to suggest that men respond differently to women than women do to men or than men do to other men. On this basis, a female character with Charisma of 14 is going, in an isolated interaction, to have a more powerful influence on a man than a man with a Charisma of 14 would on either a man or a woman. If we accept that a 10 represents an average Charisma and therefore that a 14 is a 40% above average Charisma, we can reasonably conclude that a woman will benefit more from a Charisma of 14 than a man would.

Actually, in D&D, Charisma effects are not the slightest bit affected by the gender of either participant. It's YOUR house rule, buddy, it's NOT D&D.

I must have hit a nerve. Nobody ever calls me buddy. Yes, I understand a difference between my house rule and D&D as a whole but I think you'll find that most people develop house rules to compensate for deficiencies they perceive in the general rule scheme.

But hey -- it's just my house rule. All I'm attempting to do is that I have adopted this rule for intellectually-grounded reasons with which you may disagree but which, despite your attempts at mockery, are based on an understanding of biology, history and literary genre.
 

mythago said:
Again, the GM is all-powerful. The GM is the one who decides what gender the NPCs have and what the world it like.

This isn't related to this thread, but I think that GM's should not have all the power. A PC should be able to say, "I'm going to talk to that woman over there", and, no matter what the GM thinks, the PC should be able to do it.

Proactive PCs are a great boon.
 

fusangite said:
The reason I ask is that however much gender differentiation there is in 21st century Western society, it pales in comparison to the gender differentiation in the eras in which fantasy games are set. Medievals society circumscribed where women could go, what they could do, how they could dress, etc. because medievals believed that men could not resist female sexuality.
Since when is a fantasy world equivalent to a medieval European world? Except for Harn? Fantasy, by definition, defies reality. So insisting on reality and historical based societies is actually non-realistic, since the circumstances that gave rise to them are not repeated in the fantasy world. Get over this little logical hurdle, and suddenly playing D&D with women characters becomes a lot more palatable.

Buddy. ;)
 


Rassafrassin' party-poopin' moderators. ;)

What I stated was that most NPCs in bronze-age and medieval fantasy worlds are male.

Joshua is correct. We are talking about fantasy worlds, which depart from the "real" bronze-age and medieval European, historically accurate, world in umpteen zillion ways. Unless you are trying to run an exact, SCA-like simulation of a particular time period and world, you are going to be leaving things out as well as making things up out of whole cloth.

If you choose to have a Faux Europe where men hold most positions of influence, that's fine--but it's your choice as the DM to set up such a world. Pretending that you must have the majority of NPCs be men, because History Was Like That, is dishonest.

BTW, by "all-powerful" I don't mean that the players are powerless. To clarify, what I meant is that in the matter of setting up the world, choosing what will and won't be present, and so forth, the GM is all-powerful. There is no Accuracy Committee that is going to decertify your game if you allow many merchant guilds to be run by women, or if you have half-elves openly ruling human kingdoms. If something is in the world, it's because the GM chose to put it there.
 

Since when is a fantasy world equivalent to a medieval European world? Except for Harn? Fantasy, by definition, defies reality. So insisting on reality and historical based societies is actually non-realistic, since the circumstances that gave rise to them are not repeated in the fantasy world. Get over this little logical hurdle, and suddenly playing D&D with women characters becomes a lot more palatable.

Let me clarify: I only disallow men from playing women; I don't disallow female characters.

On to the main point: the term "fantasy" refers not to the definition of fantasy as the opposite of reality but rather the literary genre called "fantasy."

D&D is part of the fantasy genre and is designed to tell certain kinds of stories within the mainstream of this genre. One need only look at the list of samples gods, the list of classes, the list of feats, the list of skills or the list of spells to see that D&D rules make certain assumptions about the world:
(a) a large portion of conflicts will be resolved through violence
(b) the value of a person is largely determined by his capacity to exercise physical or psychological coercive force directly or indirectly
(c) the apsects of a person which are most merritting of description involve competitive, often violent interactions with others
(d) the majority of magic functions to exercise physical or psychological coercive force directly or indirectly
(e) valued, celebrated occupations are those of specialists in exercising physical or psychological coecrcive force directly or indirectly
(f) 15% of the gods are female

What do these pieces of information tell you about the role of women in this world? What do they tell you about the fantasy genre as understood by the framers of D&D?

If you would like to argue this point with respect to D20 systems in general, I might grant that you have a point but as we are talking about D&D, it's pretty clear that there is a working definition of fantasy for the purposes of this debate.
 

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