roleplaying across the gender line

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Well, to present a bit of the weirdo's voice here, I know I sure as heck would have fun if I were turned into a woman for a couple of days. I won't go into detail because of Eric's Grandma, but suffice it to say it would involve a visit to see my girlfriend (nearly fiancee), and hopefully it would be a learning experience. I could experience life as a woman for a little while, maybe learning how some aspects of female physiology can be a pain, or having to deal with sexism and see how bad it really is. And, of course, hopefully I'd be hot, because I won't deny that I like breasts. I'm straight as a rapier, but that doesn't mean I'm not curious, y'know?

Anyway, my first ever long-time PC was a modern-day female, Native American Christian paladin. Out of that list of traits, the only thing I share is being Christian. Well, and living in the modern day. One of the up sides is that, as an artist, I generally find more asthetic pleasure in drawing women, so if I have a female PC, I'm more likely to get up the desire to draw her than I would with a male one.

Dang, I bet I'm coming across as weird. Ah well. C'est la vie.
 

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Well this was an interesting thread to read. It is what only nearing five in the morning?

What is wrong with players playing across their gender characters?

I play male characters and I have not had any players say "I have never seen a man played so horribly!"

In our AD&D adventure, where we are all girls (even the GM - okay there is Markus, but he is different), there is an interesting gender trait happening. My character, 17 year old initiate (male), is far more feminine personality wise then his cousin, a paladin of Torm.

I posted somewhere nearing page 1 of the thread about after-effects. Well, they were meant, in my defence, for usage about what might happen, if a player simply uses sex as a crude tool. Now, there is nothign wrong with using sex as a tool (like currently in the Milleiniums End pbem, my character got drunk, on purpose, and slept with her co-worker. It's the morning after, and now there is going to be a long discussion between the two characters on what should be done). But like everythign else I believe it should be to fascilitate roleplaying, or to use my favorite term, make the game interesting. If a game devolves into a simple mechanistical habit of slaying all the creatures and gathering their loot. Why play tabletop roleplaying games?

If gender has meaning in a game, why prevent players from using it? If gender is meaningless, why is it anymore different then having your ears pierced, or your face covered with tribal tattoos?
If gender is set by the GM , then players have to abide by it (examples that come to mind is a high-powered campaign set in the temple of Llort, or to play modern Special Forces troops; while interesting to play the opposite gender in each, the world itself relegates because of the gender the character to the role of doorstop).

This is not a clear post by any sense of the way. I am just curious, and to paraquote a previous poster "I play men, and I am a woman. So what's the problem?"

As for characters I play, I prefer creating multipage character descriptions, charting history, personality, loved ones, and friends, rather then figuring out point totals for my character sheet. Personally (and to put more of you dear readers into greater paroxysms of fear) I consider a game where I don't even need to look at my character sheet a success, or where a whole session has all been about characters sitting in a wagon in the rain, complaining.

-Angel Tears
 

Just to clarify what it is we're actually arguing about here:

1) Does anyone really think that a DM doesn't have a right to ban a particular character type when their players have consistently demonstrated an inability to play that type well?

It seems to be generally agreed that if your players are completely unable to play convincing women or elves or spellcasters, then you are justified in laying down some house rules. And possibly justified in finding new players.

However,

2) Some players can play cross-gender characters well, and clearly wish to cross the gender line. Does anyone really think that they should be universally banned from doing so?

-WLS
 

WisdomLikeSilence said:
1) Does anyone really think that a DM doesn't have a right to ban a particular character type when their players have consistently demonstrated an inability to play that type well?

Certainly not I. I would go farther, and say that no-one has a right to force any GM to run anything he or she doesn't want to. So the GM has the right to 'ban' female characters (or any other sort of character) even that his or her players can play well. And sometimes there are good reasons to exercise this right. For example, I once ran a (short, but fondly-remembered) campaign which for very good reasons required that none of the PCs could be an able-bodied man between the ages of 16 and 40. No matter how interesting a concept, no matter how much the player wanted to play him, no character in that category could be admitted to the campaign. On other occasions I have supplied players with completely pre-generated characters, thus taking away all their choice.

On the other hand, if any GM exercises this right with too heavy a hand will find his players, and his best players, voting with their feet. It is all a matter of balance and in the end of negotiation.

Regards,


Agback
 

Thanks for the responses so far. It's not as though I'm going to contradict anyone for the most part -- clearly we are working from different bodies of experience. There is thus only one matter on which I'll offer some rebuttal: that of de facto enhancement bonuses for Charisma-based skills.

Let us assume 10 is average, 14 exceptional and 18 spectacular in a particular ability. When a woman of average attractiveness interacts with a man, he responds more positively to her than he would with a man of average attractiveness. Similarly, he will respond more favourably to a woman of exceptional attractiveness than he would to a man of exceptional attractiveness.

Most of the NPCs in a bronze age or medieval fantasy adventure world will be male; furthermore, even if this were not the case, study after study has shown that women's positive response to attractive males while extant is neither as immediate nor as dramatic as males' responses to attractive females. This is true amongst humans just as the reverse is true amongst ducks. Maybe some demihuman species in D&D are more like ducks than humans (certainly that's true in Runequest) but generally in D&D, Charisma effects from women are more powerful than from men.

Anyway, back to reading 37 pages of Haikus.
 

Bagpuss said:
Same is true if you opted to play a black or chinese character in a say a roleplaying game set in a Wild West period, you character would be treated completely differently experience than if they were a white character.

Which I wouldn't, personally, allow either. Neither would I allow a 6'8" Teutonic barbarian in an otherwise native party in an Oriental adventures campaign or a hobgoblin in an all-human party in my overwhelmingly humanocentric homebrew campaign.

Such a character would be the focus of the majority of NPC attention. I really don't enjoy running roleplay encounters in a campaign where one particular PC consistently possesses "freak value".

Of course, should it be the case that all the PC's (and most significant NPC's) wouldn't be out of place in a circus, then I'd probably be running a freakshow by Monte Cook.
 

Re: In response to fusangite

Al said:
He has not empirically proven that all cross-gender characters fall into one of those five categories.

Which was predictable, since, like the rest of the "anti-cross-gender cohort", he NEVER EVER EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ALL CROSS GENDER CHARACTERS OR INDEED ANY CROSS GENDER CHARACTERS OUTSIDE OF HIS EXPERIENCE.

Which must be disappointing for all the out-of-work moral crusaders in this thread. I guess that's why they resort to misrepresenting anyone who might give them reason to burn with outrage and thus feel very important.
 

Agback said:
Now, now, Eel. You resorted to ridicule in your reply to my first post in this thread, before you had tried anything.

(sigh)

You're the one who's exerting an incredible amount of time and energy in finding excuses for avoiding any meaningful discussion.

You "Don't wanna talk about it"?

Fine. Be a man, admit you're wrong and I'll stop ridiculing your precious little self.
 

mythago said:
If you have a world where NPCs' Wisdom drops to zero in the presence of an elf girl with a cute butt, you also have a world where that kind of male attention is on whether she wants it to be or not. That can be rather less than fun.

Ooh!

This is what I've been trying to say about freak-value.

You are with-it, girlfriend!

I want you to be my little sister/significant other/mom. Depending on other mitigating factors...
 

fusangite said:
There is thus only one matter on which I'll offer some rebuttal: that of de facto enhancement bonuses for Charisma-based skills.
This is brilliant. I love this.

First of all, let's be clear: YOU brought up this notion as a justification for not letting players play women. So what you've done is created your own house rule and then used that rule to ban certain behaviour. Which is fine, but it's certainly not much of a logical argument.
Let us assume 10 is average, 14 exceptional and 18 spectacular in a particular ability. When a woman of average attractiveness interacts with a man, he responds more positively to her than he would with a man of average attractiveness. Similarly, he will respond more favourably to a woman of exceptional attractiveness than he would to a man of exceptional attractiveness.
"Respond more positively" -- that's great. Just what does that mean, exactly? Okay, I know. You're saying that if she suggests something, he's more likely to believe her because she's a pretty girl.

That's complete nonsense. It's nonsense because even if you accept the notion that men are more likely to believe pretty girls (it's not like pretty girls never get led astray by heartless seducers, is it? Oh, no), you MUST believe that they ONLY believe certain types of lies. No man (especially, I think a man who finds it difficult to remain rational around pretty girls) is going to be more likely to believe a woman who says, for example, that she's the local captain of the guard, especially if she's dressed in some saucy little number.

Men "respond more positively" to other men in all kinds of situations. Many men are very uncomfortable, for example, having women in positions of authority over them, and respond much more positively to men in such relationships. I would not be inclined to give a woman in such a situation a Charisma bonus. A man who is dressed in a uniform of authority, by your system, ought to get a better Bluff bonus than a woman wearing the same outfit.

My point is that for every situation in which women have an easier time lying to men, there are plenty of situations in which they have a harder time. So I think it's unfair of you to tote up one column of numbers without adding the other.
Most of the NPCs in a bronze age or medieval fantasy adventure world will be male
WHAT?! Most people are male? Where did all the women go? Are they hiding because they can't find players to play them? Are they ashamed of all these great bonuses they get? This is great, really. Great stuff.
furthermore, even if this were not the case, study after study has shown that women's positive response to attractive males while extant is neither as immediate nor as dramatic as males' responses to attractive females. This is true amongst humans just as the reverse is true amongst ducks.
Really, you ought to be charging admission for this -- this is great material. Take it on the road, add some juggling, you've got a heck of an act. Ducks! I'm speechless.

And you interpret "positive response" to mean "bonus to Charisma checks". Uh-huh. And the ONLY factor you consider is sexual attraction. Obsess much?

The fact that guys get sexually excited faster and more noticeably than women does not, in my mind, translate into bonuses to Charisma. Or rather, maybe it does, but if I do that, then logically I ought to consider all of the other possible bonuses to Charisma. Which in fact I do.

If one of players is playing a beautiful woman and he or she decides this character is going to try and seduce El Lonely Guy, I'll probably award a bonus. Likewise, if the character is an older man and trying to bluff the guards into thinking he's a foreign diplomat, I might award a bonus for that, too. But I don't make a policy for this stuff -- it's situational, not universal.
Generally in D&D, Charisma effects from women are more powerful than from men.
Actually, in D&D, Charisma effects are not the slightest bit affected by the gender of either participant. It's YOUR house rule, buddy, it's NOT D&D.

But, no, this is quality entertainment. So what you're saying is that you've created a house rule that makes the game LESS playable for anyone who wants to play a male character (since they'll always be less powerful than female characters), and then you've compensated for that by disallowing female characters. That's priceless.

What you should really do, though, if you want to do this right, is create a whole new race -- the Munchkins. Give 'em +4 to every stat. Give 'em racial bonuses on every skill, natural armour, firey breath and automatic two-weapon fighting while you're at it.

Then tell your players they can't play that race. Make half the world (or perhaps not -- your world obviously has pretty, em, non-standard demographics) of this race. And never let your players play them. If they ask you why not, say: "You just want to play them because you get bonuses for free! You just wish you had firey breath! And you want hot girl-on-girl action!"

That'll show them.
 

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