Roles are so LIMITING!

[hong]

There you go. 4e only has combat roles.

I think you've forgotten what it is you're trying to argue.

 

[Pinotage]

I think you've forgotten what it is you're trying to argue.

How so?

Pinotage

 

[Charwoman Gene]

There you go. 4e only has combat roles.

Yes, 4e characters are free from the restricting straight-jacket of roles, which confined them in 3e.

 

[med stud]

How so?

Pinotage

The roles are made to give every character something to do in a combat. Outside of combat, you can give it another role. That a character is a "defender" doesn't decide it's outlook on life or how it behaves when having an audience with the king.

The only roles that need to be in the rules are roles that have effect on the rules or how the rules are written. Role playing choices are best left to the imagination of the player. There is no need for WotC to waste pages on explaining that a PC can be gruff, polite, slobby or clean, for example. At least not in any greater length.

 

[Pinotage]

Yes, 4e characters are free from the restricting straight-jacket of roles, which confined them in 3e.

So exactly how does this relate to your quote above that started this thread?

Pinotage

 

[Cadfan]

Possibly. A niche expanded to a class is still a niche, though.

Pinotage

If your happiness is the only thing I have to sacrifice to get a rogue who can dice people in 60 different and unique ways, then, I'm sorry.

 

[Pinotage]

The roles are made to give every character something to do in a combat. Outside of combat, you can give it another role. That a character is a "defender" doesn't decide it's outlook on life or how it behaves when having an audience with the king.

The only roles that need to be in the rules are roles that have effect on the rules or how the rules are written. Role playing choices are best left to the imagination of the player. There is no need for WotC to waste pages on explaining that a PC can be gruff, polite, slobby or clean, for example. At least not in any greater length.

Fair points. Going on the 4e rogue we've seen, though, there were only two combat roles, IIRC. Granted, that might not be all the roles there are, but it seems limiting. I'll admit that the social rogues are now an entirely different system, but two roles seems limiting to me.

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

If your happiness is the only thing I have to sacrifice to get a rogue who can dice people in 60 different and unique ways, then, I'm sorry.

Huh? Care to say what you really want to say?

Pinotage

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Fair points. Going on the 4e rogue we've seen, though, there were only two combat roles, IIRC. Granted, that might not be all the roles there are, but it seems limiting. I'll admit that the social rogues are now an entirely different system, but two roles seems limiting to me.

Pinotage

There was only one combat role - Striker. He had two... "build options" presented, and two general routes he could take, but each of them are only related to being a Striker.

His "out of combat skills" are not really related to his combat role. He doesn't need Bluff, Stealth or Thievery to be a Striker. That's part of what we associate with a Rogue.

 

[DreamChaser]

So how does you quote above that started this thread justify your unstated position? Roles have been around since the start of the game. They're nothing new. Every edition had them.

Pinotage

The point is (was) that 4e's roles are not only not new...

By my read, the point of that point is that since roles have been around since we gamers first crawled like apes from the trees to pick up a d20 and go wild, the burden of proof that 4e's roles are somehow more restrictive lies with the opposition rather than with the defense.

That burden calls upon the opposition to demonstrate in someway either that...
a) D&D roles have become more restrictive or
b) That the quote of the OP is erroneous and that roles are new (and thus by definition more restrictive).

I for one like the fact that combat role is being explicitly spelled out and only those abilities that need linking into that role are being linked.

DC