Roll for Effect or Intent?

[zarionofarabel]

Note: Poll for entertainment and research purposes only.

Roll for Effect [Task Oriented Rolls]: The roll is made to determine if the task the character is trying to accomplish is successful.
Roll for Intent [Goal Oriented Rolls]: The roll is made to determine if the goal the character is tying to accomplish is successful.

Example Scenario A: The PC wants to sneak into a walled compound, break into a locked office, and steal documents containing compromising information they can use to blackmail a rival NPC.
Roll for Effect: The player rolls to determine if the PC can scale the wall to enter the compound. The player then rolls to determine if the PC can pick the lock on the office door so they can get inside. The player then rolls to see if the PC can find documents containing compromising information.
Roll for Intent: The player rolls to determine if the PC successfully blackmails the NPC.

Example Scenario B: The PC wants to decipher an ancient scroll to gain access to a ritual that will banish a Demon.
Roll for Effect: The player rolls to determine if the PC can decipher the text on the scroll. The player then rolls to determine if the PC has the knowledge/skill to perform the ritual. The player then rolls to determine if the PC performs the ritual correctly.
Roll for Intent: The player rolls to determine if the PC banishes the Demon.

Example Scenario C: The PC wants to gain an audience with the king so they ask the king to send troops to the border to help defend against an invading army.
Roll for Effect: The player rolls to determine if the PC can gain an audience with the king. The player then rolls to determine if the PC can convince the king to send troops to the border. The player then rolls to determine if the PC can effectively command the troops in battle.
Roll for Intent: The player rolls to determine if PC successfully defends the kingdom from the invading army.

So, while I understand the "Roll for Intent" in principle, I have trouble translating that to what is supposed to happen at the table. I am not sure how to implement "goal oriented rolls" in play. So for anyone who voted for "Roll for Intent" (or who didn't but understands and has utilized it) how do you do it?

My biggest issue is when to call for roll(s). Do you...
A) Call for the roll at the beginning of the scene, then have the result determine how to narrate the events of the scene?
B) Begin describing the scene, pause during a "tense" moment to roll, then finish the narration based on the result of the roll?
C) Narrate the events of the scene, then roll at the end to determine if the goal is ,in fact, accomplished?
D) Something else? (please explain)

Thanks for participating!

[Edit: changed example A roll for intent end goal]

 

[payn]

Depends on the situation. I tend to think of limiting rolls to things that matter. So, I dont know if a sneak check, lock pick check, search check is necessary for this goal A. Then again, if this is part of an effort of the party storming a keep, building, dungeon, etc.. I might put those rolls out as how the PC can do so undetected and how much time it takes to complete. Lastly, I am a bit more of a fail forward degree of success type. The PC can get the info, but there might be all kinds of complications attached they have to deal with sooner or later as a result.

My biggest issue is when to call for roll(s). Do you...
A) Call for the roll at the beginning of the scene, then have the result determine how to narrate the events of the scene?
B) Begin describing the scene, pause during a "tense" moment to roll, then finish the narration based on the result of the roll?
C) Narrate the events of the scene, then roll at the end to determine if the goal is ,in fact, accomplished?
D) Something else? (please explain)

Ive used all of these but reverse order (D-A) is how id rank them. With D being a conversation with the player in how they imagine the scene with the character in mind. I will often craft the narrative, stakes, and results as part of a discussion as opposed to usualy trad GM narrates everything but PC actions.

 

[overgeeked]

If I'm understanding the question, I think you're skipping over stuff you don't need to in your examples. That is to say, rolling for goal or intent doesn't mean one roll to rule them all. You can still break things into discreet steps, they're just more involved than a single task.

The game that comes to mind is HeroQuest 2E or QuestWorlds. One of the resolution methods is basically roll to resolve the scene, your B option from the bottom of your post. But even that isn't "PC stands in front of the castle wanting an audience to ask the king for troops...okay, now make one roll to resolve everything between now the ultimate victory or defeat in the inevitable final battle to save the kingdom months from now."

So in...

Example Scenario A: The PC wants to sneak into a walled compound, break into a locked office, and steal documents containing compromising information they can use to blackmail a rival NPC.

A goal or intent roll would be one roll covering the sneaking part (goal: get to the office), one roll covering the breaking into the office part (goal: breaking into the office), one roll to find the documents (goal: find the documents), and one roll to sneak back out part. Whether those documents actually contain any blackmail-worthy info is entirely a separate question.

Task rolls would be 1) sneak through this part of the castle, 2) sneak by these guards, 3) navigate the castle, 4) sneak to the office, 5) pick the lock on the door, 6) search the office, 7) search the desk for traps...etc.

My biggest issue is when to call for roll(s). Do you...

B) Begin describing the scene, pause during a "tense" moment to roll, then finish the narration based on the result of the roll?

For me it's this one. Do as much of the roleplaying as possible, get to the peak of the tension, then roll it.

But I do prefer a bit more rolling most times. Instead of one roll for the whole journey, it would be one roll for each of the 3-4 legs of the journey.

If you're familiar with Draw Steel, the negotiations and montages are where I'd settle in.

 

[zarionofarabel]

With D being a conversation with the player in how they imagine the scene with the character in mind. I will often craft the narrative, stakes, and results as part of a discussion as opposed to usualy trad GM narrates everything but PC actions.

I am not entirely sure what you mean by this. Is there any way you could provide an example?

 

[zarionofarabel]

A goal or intent roll would be one roll covering the sneaking part (goal: get to the office), one roll covering the breaking into the office part (goal: breaking into the office), one roll to find the documents (goal: find the documents), and one roll to sneak back out part. Whether those documents actually contain any blackmail-worthy info is entirely a separate question.

Task rolls would be 1) sneak through this part of the castle, 2) sneak by these guards, 3) navigate the castle, 4) sneak to the office, 5) pick the lock on the door, 6) search the office, 7) search the desk for traps...etc.

So I've got the gist of it at least? I should perhaps be thinking about scenes in more discreet sections, and frame goals and stakes on that instead of the overarching goal?

If you're familiar with Draw Steel, the negotiations and montages are where I'd settle in.

I am not.

 

[overgeeked]

So I've got the gist of it at least?

It sounds like it, yes.

I should perhaps be thinking about scenes in more discreet sections, and frame goals and stakes on that instead of the overarching goal?

That's how I'd do it, but there's an infinite variety of ways to handle it. Individual tasks, parts of scenes, whole scenes, etc.

The QuestWorlds SRD has a lot of great info about this style of framing. It's legally free here. "Conflict: Goals vs Obstacles" on page 12 is a great place to start. The text is a bit dry, but it's good.

 

[Tonguez]

Generally I suggest you should use C) The GM sets the scene, setting up opposition, then the PCs say how they want to proceed

then roll at the end to determine if they achieve their goal? If they succeed GM frames a new scene. If they fail opposition is triggered and the PCs must react to it

Example Scenario A: The PC wants to sneak into a walled compound, break into a locked office, and steal documents containing compromising information they can use to blackmail a rival NPC.
That naturally breaks into at least three scenes 1.The Compound, 2. Inside the Office 3. Locating the NPC

GM frames a scene:
“The Manor house sits within high compound walls, topped with iron spikes. Torches burn in iron sconces, casting long shadows. A guard stands at the main door while another pair make slow circuits around the area, checking side doors are locked as they pass, and you hear the faint bark of a hound from the kennels. The front gate is chained shut.”
Aspects: Darkness, High Spiked Walls, Flickering Shadows, Chained gate
Opposition: Alert Guards (3), Restless Hounds

Example Scenario B: is just a Scroll interpretation challenge (the challenge could be as simple as deciphering the language or could include eldritch curses) but just knowing the words doesnt mean you have completed the Ritual - thats an entirely different act

Example Scenario C: involves Scene 1 The Social challenge of Gaining Access to the Kings Court and Scene 2 Convincing the King of your case.
Defending the border is an entirely different act

 

[Koloth]

The questions as phrased are more about granularity. The task of blackmailing the NPC is broken down into 3 sub tasks: 1 Get over the wall. 2 Get into the office. 3 Find the documents. And the ever important but unmentioned - 4 - Get out of the compound with the documents.
And it can further be broken down into:
A - Get to the base of the wall.
B - Toss a grappling hook and get it to catch on something.
C - Succeed in a climb check.
D - Get down off the wall into the compound.
E - Sneak to the office (you do know which of the 10 buildings in the compound is the office????)
F - Open the locked office door.
G - Search for the documents.
H - Deal with guard that noticed the unlocked office door.....
I - Open the safe(because you failed to find the documents outside the safe)
J - Figure out which of the hundreds of documents are the ones in question.
K - Get out of the compound alive and with the documents.
All of the above are while being stealthy. Possibly complicated if the compound isn't really a bad place and the guards are simple employees.

One can assume that the task of blackmailing the NPC is just one sub task of a larger scale task. Maybe the NPC in question is the one that can grant an audience with the King so the PCs can make the argument about sending troops to the border.

 

[Reynard]

I am not sure I have ever encountered a "roll for intent" game, at least not one that doesn't want a fairly detailed explanation of action. And that I would call more a "one roll resolution" system than a roll for intent system.

The biggest problem with roll for intent as described in the OP is that it really doesn't embrace player agency.

"We want to get the names of the people involved."
"Okay, roll."
"17"
"You spend a few days roughing up suspects at bars and get a name."
"But I wouldn't do that..."