Roman Gladius

[Krieg]

I'm curious how folks would model the gladius - the potent Roman short sword (or at least, the Romans took the idea and improved it.)

The only real changes they made to the Gladius were to make it more efficient to make.

A Pompeii pattern Gladius isn't any more effective than a Mainz pattern, it's just easier to mass produce them.

The illustration below does a good job of showing the evolution of Roman blade patterns over time.

At the far left is the Gladius Hispaniensis that it is generally believed was adopted by the Romans from Gaulish mercenaries. It was used during the early Republic and had a blade of up to 30" long.

The blade was soon shortened to the Mainz pattern to accomodate the legion's style of warfare.

From the Mainz through the Fulham & ending with the Pompeii, the blade evolved into a simpler parallel bladed shape. This was done to make it quicker & cheaper to produce. A major advantage when equipping large forces.

Is the M-3 "grease gun" a more effective SMG than the Thompson? Not at all, but it replaced the Thompson because industry could make them much faster & at a lower cost while using fewer raw materials.

In large scale warfare the side with the most efficient manufacturing process has a huge advantage.

The simple answer is to make it just a short sword with a fancy name, but I don't think that accurately reflects the blade (otherwise the Romans wouldn't have used it).

Simple answers are usually the best.

The Romans used it because it was an effective weapon. That doesn't make it an uber weapon in need of overpowering stats.

What other ideas are there for modelling Roman-like troops with the gladius?

The Romans were successful because of training, tactics & logistics. Base their build around their specialized tactics (ie formation fighting), CCamfield & humble minion put forth good ideas in that direction.

 

[Rel]

The Romans were successful because of training, tactics & logistics. Base their build around their specialized tactics (ie formation fighting), CCamfield & humble minion put forth good ideas in that direction.

What an excellent, informative post, Krieg. Thank you.

All I have to add is rank speculation, but I always figured that the gladius was shaped like it was because the Romans were typically fighting in formation. If you've got to stab your sword between your big shield and the guy to the right's big shield, best to have a weapon without large quillons on it that might get hung up. The design seems clearly inferior to a more "classic", medieval short sword when it comes to individual fighting in the open where your opponent's blade could easily slide down and slice open your wrist without much to stop it.

But I could be completely wrong about that.

 

[Enkhidu]

Actually, quillons were a fairly late-adopted invention in sword technology. It wasn't until the later dark ages and beginning of the high middle that quillons extended into the "classic" cross. Up until then, sword had either no real quillons (like the gladius) or a very truncated quillon (as in celtic and, later, anglo-saxon and viking swords).

And kreig is right on the money about gladii - they were simple short swords that were used by well trained soldiers.

By the way, as the close packed infantry waned in importance, swords became longer. In fact, Roman calvary used spatha (long swords based on the gladius) for the last few centuries of the empire.

 

[Dogbrain]

The greatness of Roman military might was not due to Roman weapons. It was due to Roman soldiers. Individually, they were probably less able than a given barbarian warrior. As a legion, they were far better than a given barbarian army (on the right ground). They learned to cooperate in combat beyond anything that was seen afterwards until the modern era. Their weapons were nothing magnificent--mass-produced and functional, nothing more. It was the legionary that was the great accomplishment of Rome, not the Gladius.

 

[Emiricol]

I think I'm settling on a feat that models close-formation, highly disciplined troops. Using a particular shield and a particular sword, they get bonuses to AC for fighting next to others with similar equipment.

This reflects the fact that most users of the large shield etc have to make accomodations for the wide swing of the weapon, whereas with this particular combo of gear the shields are in motion less in reaction to the bearer's attack, increasing the efficiency of the thing.

I will also reduce the cost of the blade, thanks for the tip Krieg - that was really useful!

Interesting...

 

[humble minion]

And that's called missing the joke folks...

Heh. I must have been hanging around rpg.net for too long. My know-nothing-abusive-moron detector seem to have been overloaded, and is now giving me false positives...

Sorry if I was snarky, LightPhoenix and clark411.

 

[CCamfield]

A little factoid...

I don't know where this comes from, but I have read (online) that the gladius was responsible for more deaths than any other form of weapon before the development of firearms.

 

[Enkhidu]

It would be a possibility, but I'd actually guess that the spear has killed more...

What was the preferred weapon of ancient Chinese armies?

 

[Krieg]

I don't know where this comes from, but I have read (online) that the gladius was responsible for more deaths than any other form of weapon before the development of firearms.

I don't have any statistics to back it up, but I'd put my money on the spear in it's various incarnations.

 

[Paka]

I'm curious how folks would model the gladius - the potent Roman short sword (or at least, the Romans took the idea and improved it.)

The simple answer is to make it just a short sword with a fancy name, but I don't think that accurately reflects the blade (otherwise the Romans wouldn't have used it).

What other ideas are there for modelling Roman-like troops with the gladius?

Hey Emiricol, my main Story Hour pimp. I am thrilled to have an idea on this quandry for ya.

The Gladius, to me, is just a fancy short sword. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but what made the Roman's use of it great was the way they used it as a unit, short sword not getting in the way of the soldier next to them's shield. How about a feat of some kind, Roman Centurion, wherein, if there is a line of five soldiers they get a plus to AC and a plus to attack, but if the line is broken, this bonus goes away.

Hence folks doing things to break their lines, like throwing logs and such.

Hope that helps.