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Rotator Spacecraft

garrowolf

First Post
I am working on rotator spacecraft for my game. I am trying to set them up for three tech levels.
The first tech level is the cyber age. I was thinking of having the ships as long and fragile with rotating sections similar to the one on that short lived tv show Defying Gravity.

The second tech level is the fusion age. I was thinking of having rotator ships similar to the Earth Alliance Omega Class Destroyer from Babylon 5. Ships would be smaller and tougher.

The third tech level is the colonial age. There would be colonyships that would be large and use long term cryosleep. I think that the military ships would be similar to the Omega class as well.

I'm not sure of any other details. All three need to be using rotating sections for gravity. No force fields (except EM fields), no artificial gravity, inertial compensators, or FTL systems. All of that comes in the next tech level.

So does anyone have any ideas on more details?
 

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I was just thinking of having rams on the front of ships to catch particles and debris in the way. It could be made of asteroid rock.
 


Well, your questions are pretty specific. But I have looked into the issue a bit, so maybe you'll find some of this useful for your cyber age.

Using real-world physics, it isn't tough to make artificial gravity using rotation. Centripetal acceleration = rw^2 (using w=omega), so if we put a cap on the ship's rotation at 4 rpm as per Hill & Schnizter (1962) we only need a radius of ~55 meters for 1g. Of course, with a radius that small you can run into noticeable weirdness (e.g. gravity changes depending on which direction you walk or what floor you're on), and other researchers have suggested much lower rotation to prevent psychological effects; Hill & Schnizter even suggest 0.01 rad/s, requiring either a radius of 98 km or else a much lower apparent gravity. Since this is an rpg rather than NASA, you could probably get away with a radius of a few hundred meters - but you probably wouldn't want the spacecraft to be long. A spaceship with even a small 100m radius would be quite large at a length of 200m; wikipedia tells me that the Typhoon-class sub was only a fraction of that volume. The alternative is to make the ship rotate end-over-end, and then put living space in two drums on either side, and require transport between the drums through a brief zero-gee area.

For materials you'll want a mixture of metals and advanced plastics to keep weight down. Plausible weapons will be projectile based, probably using magnetic rails, so defenses may take the form of magnetic fields; these would be necessary anyway to deflect the solar wind. But non-magnetic projectiles would be undeterred by magnetic fields, so layers of hull reinforcement would probably also be necessary.

Weapons can be lasers, provided that they are primarily ship-to-ship, since atmosphere will diffuse the beams; likewise ship defenses will take the form of smoke-screens and perpendicular mirrored panels to reflect beams back at the sender. Once some alloy is found that reflects across the spectrum, though, it's hard for me to imagine how lasers could stay effective.

Regarding propulsion, planets create deep, deep gravity wells, and it wouldn't be economically feasible to carry huge stores of fuel and burn them all over the solar system. So most merchant or exploration vessels would probably use low-energy thrusters and cruse through the interplanetary transport network; passage on and off ships could take place in space stations or space elevators. Only warships and colony vessels would carry out fuel-intensive maneuvers such as planetary landings or free motion throughout the solar system, with one likely exception being very light zero-gee scout vessels propelled using a solar sail. Larger vessels might have a few such scouts with their sails folded up in a hangar.

Given the vagaries of n-body motion, current maps of the asteroid belts would be prized by traders passing between the inner and outer planets. And it goes without saying that trajectories would be carefully calculated by computer (or by aspies addicted to the spice); any deviation would be expensive and nail-biting.

I could go on, but I have no idea whether these are even the kind of suggestions you were interested in. Maybe they'll stimulate someone else to post something, though!


References You Probably Don't Care About

Carl C. Clark and James D. Hardy. "Gravity Problems in Manned Space Stations." Proceedings of the Manned Space Stations Symposium, April 20-22, 1960, pages 104-113. Institute of the Aeronautical Sciences, 1960.

Paul R. Hill and Emanuel Schnitzer. "Rotating Manned Space Stations." Astronautics, vol. 7, no. 9, pages 14-18, September 1962. American Rocket Society.
 

Well for one I decided that the artificial gravity that they would be going for would be something closer to Mars gravity (.3 g). Then have some exercise areas that are rotating faster but for a much smaller area.

The cyber age would have the fragile kind, mostly following the interplanetary transport network (thanks for that!). I also like the idea of using apollo/amor asteroids as transit stations as described in the Millennial Project. Ships would be mostly scientific and early mining attempts.

The Fusion Age would have heavy duty ships with smaller rotating sections. I was thinking of it being similar to James Corey's Leviathan Wakes series. Basically Belters vs Mars vs Earth with remote outposts in the outer planets.

The Colonial Age would have faster and heavier duty ships with crews in stasis controlling the ship through VR so the accelerations don't bother them consciously. I was also going to have a lot of people living under the oceans on Earth as well.

For weapons I was going to have mostly railguns and missiles used.

Actually this is the Tech Level write ups I have at the moment:


TL 15: Cyber Age (2030 – 2110 CE)
Advances in nanotechnology, biology, and computers open up cybernetic interfaces between humanity and our tools. Exosuit power armor develops. Various kinds of fuel cells become common. There are a large number of developments in robotics. Dangerous viruses are explored. Personality recordings are now possible but it doesn't have the spark of the original. The mind is being explored and abused. VR is common.

Primative Limited Nanotech – Only work inside of a assembler. Early medical nanotech. Very restricted usage.
3d printing is a major factor now.


TL 16: Fusion Age (2110 – 2200 CE)
Humanity fully explores the solar system. Space is no longer just the realm of megacorps and nations. The asteroid belts are filled with people in a population explosion.
Mechs become common combat vehicles; Bioroids so close to human that you can't easily tell are common. Genies are being engineered. Cloning organs is common. Brain in a jar tech is available. Animal uplift explored. Droids become common. Full AI is available.
Single stage to orbit vehicles becomes common. A considerable number of space stations are built. Wars expand to other planets. Underground cities develop on other planets and moons. Habits are the new village. Small single man fighters are mostly replaced by drones however they are sometimes used as personal vehicles. They are good in ship to ship combat at the civilian or pirate level but fleet combat doesn't use them at all because they can't really keep up. Space stations will usually have a number of personal craft, largely modified workpods, to function as port security.
This is a time of early large scale underwater colonies, mostly scientific and military. Hyper-cavitation vessels are developed. The aquatic whisperjet is developed.

Limited Nanotech – Only work inside of a assembler. Mostly industrial uses. Replaces 3d printing. More common uses.

TL 17: Colonial Age (2200-2300 CE)
Humanity sends manned missions to other solar systems using cryosleep. Large rotator motherships are developed. The various colonies develop into different cultures.
Asteroid cities hold most of the people in the Sol System now. Terraforming is being carried out on several planets. Huge space stations, similar to Babylon 5, and arcologies are being built using new materials. Things have an enormous scale to them now.
Colonial Age spacecraft are much larger than Fusion Age craft. Their rotator sections are usually concealed and protected by armor.
There is large scale colonization of the oceans. Seaquest style vehicles and hyper-cavitation ships become common.


Moderate Nanotech – Only works inside of an assembler. However you can have self repairing vehicles, starships, and houses. Integrated into everything. People wear a watch that controls the nanites inside them. Replaces cyberware completely and augments bioware. Limited use within a meter of controller.
 

Some ideas:

"War" might take on an entirely new face, since weapons technology is oftentimes the first to advance.

Rotating gravity probably wouldn't be necessary past one or two ages.

Assuming humanity has the ability to survive not one, but two sci-fi ages, AI would probably become a real problem.

Finally - evolution. In what age does mankind find the ability to effectively modify genes to do, well, whatever it wants? Maybe AI can help with that...

By the way, +1 to Dethklok, that was a proper response.
 
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The AI issue, I personally think, will be solved before it becomes a problem. First off, there is enough warning movies over the years that I think no one will allow an AI to have uncontrolled access to things. Secondly, I don't believe in the sudden consciousness of AIs. I think that you can program an AI to reason and sound human but unless you program it will hidden destructive urges it will not suddenly decide to kill everyone.
I think that what will happen is that we will play with the idea for a while and create some useful robot servants but computers don't have a subconscious or an Id. Once we separate the ability to intelligently process information from the other aspects of human behavior and stop trying to mix the two we will be more successful.
Basically I think we will have AIs that are used for information processing and AIs that are used for social interaction.

I've got major gene enhancements a result of the Colonial Age so it becomes common in the Gravitic Age (which is the next age).


The reason I have three ages of space before the Gravitic age is that someone asked for a setting with STL colony ships and I decided to expand and rearrange the Fusion Age to cover that.
Also I like to slow down tech level progressions so they cover more time periods.
 

Well for one I decided that the artificial gravity that they would be going for would be something closer to Mars gravity (.3 g). Then have some exercise areas that are rotating faster but for a much smaller area.
What is it with you gamers and your overcomplications? Just extend arms from the main rotating body; if you double the radius you double the artificial gravity. That's much simpler than getting two sections with different rotational velocities to interface cleanly with one another. Moving parts in a sealed environment are a bad idea.

The Colonial Age would have faster and heavier duty ships with crews in stasis controlling the ship through VR so the accelerations don't bother them consciously. I was also going to have a lot of people living under the oceans on Earth as well.
Mm, yes. This is, by the way, where I think expansion will first occur. Space is a big step; the low hanging fruit is picked first. Not to mention that we still can't make a really good biodome even at 1 atm. So perfecting arctic habitats will come first, then probably subterranean, and then submarine habitats. I think space will probably come after, unless there is an unforeseen economic or religious push to skip some of the other steps.

TL 15: Cyber Age (2030 – 2110 CE)
Advances in nanotechnology, biology, and computers open up cybernetic interfaces between humanity and our tools. Exosuit power armor develops. Various kinds of fuel cells become common. There are a large number of developments in robotics. Dangerous viruses are explored. Personality recordings are now possible but it doesn't have the spark of the original. The mind is being explored and abused. VR is common.
Personality recordings will not be possible for quite some time. I've worked with neuroscientists; a brute-force approach would require not only a complete brain scan, neuron by neuron, but more crucially, knowing the state that each neuron is in. Top-down approaches will probably be more effective for a long time to come, meaning psychometric batteries will remain the tool of choice for personality recording into the foreseeable future.

TL 16: Fusion Age (2110 – 2200 CE)
Humanity fully explores the solar system. Space is no longer just the realm of megacorps and nations. The asteroid belts are filled with people in a population explosion.
Mechs become common combat vehicles; Bioroids so close to human that you can't easily tell are common. Genies are being engineered. Cloning organs is common. Brain in a jar tech is available. Animal uplift explored. Droids become common. Full AI is available.
Single stage to orbit vehicles becomes common. A considerable number of space stations are built. Wars expand to other planets. Underground cities develop on other planets and moons. Habits are the new village. Small single man fighters are mostly replaced by drones however they are sometimes used as personal vehicles. They are good in ship to ship combat at the civilian or pirate level but fleet combat doesn't use them at all because they can't really keep up. Space stations will usually have a number of personal craft, largely modified workpods, to function as port security.
This is a time of early large scale underwater colonies, mostly scientific and military. Hyper-cavitation vessels are developed. The aquatic whisperjet is developed.
I don't believe it. This era hasn't got two more scientifically productive centuries in it. Maybe one. You find a way to cope with global warming, peak oil, economic shocks, and strong fertility differentials favoring fundamentalist religious groups (read: non- and anti-scientists) over STEM workers, and then we'll talk about animal uplifts and aquatic whisperjets!

Finally - evolution. In what age does mankind find the ability to effectively modify genes to do, well, whatever it wants?
2000 years ago; Plato already had it figured out. Now consider the strong sociocultural opposition to such ideas and you'll see (one reason) why I'm skeptical about these projections of scientific advancement into the future. Sometimes science doesn't progress at all - or sometimes, progress isn't even progress in the first place.

By the way, +1 to Dethklok, that was a proper response.
Thanks.

The AI issue, I personally think, will be solved before it becomes a problem.
Tough to create AI at all. So far we really don't understand what intelligence really is, or how it originates in the brain to simulate it in the first place. The way computers currently "think" is through brute force calculation without any self awareness or intelligence. Squirrels are smarter. Yes, computers can win at chess, but their effective ability to make sense of things or figure out what's going on is zero. I'm not saying AI cannot be built, but its discovery won't take place during a period of Kuhnian normal science. If so, this means that AI will bring with it challenges and consequences which are difficult for us even to imagine, let alone resolve beforehand.
 

The reason I was thinking of having everything .3 g is that save money on thousands of ships and space stations as well as be easier on people for transitions between zero g and .3 g. I figure that more ships will be at 1g during the Cyber Age but Belters would consider it a waste of materials and energy.
I may have it as a cultural difference for the Fusion Age. Earth ships would keep it at 1g, Martian and Belter ships would keep it at .3g.
Of course this doesn't count the gs from acceleration.

I can see moving personality scanning out to Fusion Age or Colonial Age. Which do you suggest?

Solving a lot of those problems will depend on the GM's version of the setting. If it is distopic then they don't solve most of them. They just abandon the poor to Earth and move up. Or they may move people off Earth and send them to Mars and the Belts due to a global disaster (cooling/warming/ or even NBC).

If it is more upbeat version could have Mars and the Belt representing a chance to fix Earth's ecosystem with new resources. Earth could end up as a stellar park and museum.

One of the reasons that I believe that there will be a lot of progress in the future is the economic factors will drive the cultural ones, just like they do today.
 

Sorry for the late reply; I haven't had much time lately!

The reason I was thinking of having everything .3 g is that save money on thousands of ships and space stations as well as be easier on people for transitions between zero g and .3 g. I figure that more ships will be at 1g during the Cyber Age but Belters would consider it a waste of materials and energy.
I may have it as a cultural difference for the Fusion Age. Earth ships would keep it at 1g, Martian and Belter ships would keep it at .3g.
Of course this doesn't count the gs from acceleration.
Don't get me wrong; .3 g is probably a decent "standard" gravity. I've read that people reported their experience in the moon's gravitational field as "feeling like gravity," so even very small gs can work.

However, there are also reasons to think.3g might be a bit on the low side. The lower you go, the less agile people become - in order to generate changes in motion, gravity needs to provide enough torque to pull your body off-axis. At .3 g, people might have a sluggish, underwater feel. There's also the problem of acclimation to low gravity. After a year on a space station at .3 gs, it would probably be tough to return to Earth.

Again, .3g is probably fine, but off the cuff I'd recommend closer to .5g.

I can see moving personality scanning out to Fusion Age or Colonial Age. Which do you suggest?
I can see people cracking fusion way before personality scanning, so probably Fusion Age. We at least understand the basics of plasma; there are just problems of containment, energy transport, and the like. But the brain is a big giant question mark, and so far we've barely chewed on the dot at the bottom.

Solving a lot of those problems will depend on the GM's version of the setting. If it is distopic then they don't solve most of them. They just abandon the poor to Earth and move up. Or they may move people off Earth and send them to Mars and the Belts due to a global disaster (cooling/warming/ or even NBC).

If it is more upbeat version could have Mars and the Belt representing a chance to fix Earth's ecosystem with new resources. Earth could end up as a stellar park and museum.

One of the reasons that I believe that there will be a lot of progress in the future is the economic factors will drive the cultural ones, just like they do today.
Fine. I'll simply note that the problems of the present day are likely to be as much sociological and economic as they are ecological. Over the past few centuries, conditions were ripe for scientific and technological progress; it is my understanding that those conditions are already vanishing and will no longer prevail beyond the next hundred years or so.

As a final note, you have artificial intelligence being discovered in the fusion age. Some thought should go into explaining why this isn't an end-of-history moment; most optimists tent to regard that as the beginning of the technological singularity, because being able to build thinking computers would accelerate the rate at which computers would build smarter computers. The obvious "out" is to put a hard limit on intelligence near the current human maximum, and it might also be wise to force computers at this level of intelligence to draw large quantities of power, or have some other restrictions like materials in construction or fragility. Otherwise a technological singularity can be predicted, and there's probably not even any way to imagine what things will be like afterwards.
 

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