RoTG, Item Creation and Character Level

ARandomGod · Mar 17, 2005

I've seen a thread somewhere about this before...

One of the groups I'm in is debating about the character level entry in the creation of wonderous items. Skip's article specifically states (as I read it) that you need to meet the CL listed to make the item. The DMG does not so state... and in fact going by such a rule leads to some pretty contradictory areas of the DMG.

Like the issue that the CL of a Pearl of Power is 17, but the requirement to make a Pearl of Power is the ability to cast spells of the applicable level... which means to make a first level pearl you "have" to be able to cast first level spells, AND be level 17.

So why bother meantioning the spell requirement? At level 17 you can cast spells of any level!

This is a group with multiple games and therefore multiple GM's... (Hence the discussion as opposed to just making a houserule)

Where all do you guys know of this 'ruling' of Skip's being contradicted? Does a careful reading of the article end up with him contradicting himself IN the article? I really wish I could find the previous thread wherein I saw people tearing the various arguements apart, but since I can't... can one of you guys point it out?

Or if not, how about tearing about all the various interpretations here?
^_^
Flame on!
(Politely, of course.)

Patryn of Elvenshae · Mar 17, 2005

Dcollins will tell you that, absolutely, the CL line listed in an item's description is a prerequisite.

The SRD and DMG erratta disagree with him:

DMG Erratta said:
Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

The text that quote is referring to is from this paragraph:

SRD said:
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level).

Finally, when discussing the layout of the magic items' statblocks, it presents the following categories:

SRD said:
• Aura
• Caster Level
• Prerequisites
• Market Price
• Cost to Create
• Weight

Note that "Caster Level" is listed separately from "Prerequisites."

Thus, RAW, a given caster level is not a prerequisite. An item can be made at any caster level high enough to meet the prerequisites and no higher than the creator's own Caster Level.

JimAde · Mar 17, 2005

I agree completely with Patryn, but want to point out that it is possible for a caster to have any caster level and still not have access to a required spell. If I'm a 20th level illusionist with Evocation as a barred school, I will not have ready access to Magic Missile, for example.

jodyjohnson · Mar 17, 2005

I think Skip was just asserting that to make an item exactly like the DMG entry that you would need to meet the CL (and it's cleaner to always assume a found item's creator met the CL level listed).

By the rules and errata you could make a similar item to the version listed in the DMG but it would not be the exact item (since the CL would be lower if that was not met).

Basically any item which is listed by the DMG name would have to match the DMG description which includes meeting the CL listed when it is created. IIRC this is also the rule in the new Mark of Heroes campaign.

For home campaigns you could make the item at a lower CL (with potentially a small adjustment in price -- likely very small) but would list it as "Joe Mage's" Pearl of Power to signal that it doesn't match the DMG entry verbatim.

Hypersmurf · Mar 17, 2005

ARandomGod said:
So why bother meantioning the spell requirement? At level 17 you can cast spells of any level!

A Brd-17 has a caster level of 17, but can only cast spells up to 6th level; thus, he can't create PoP 7-9.

-Hyp.

dcollins · Mar 17, 2005

ARandomGod said:
Skip's article specifically states (as I read it) that you need to meet the CL listed to make the item. The DMG does not so state...

Actually, it does. DMG, Chapter "Magic Items: Caster Level" says this:

For other magic items (non-potions/scrolls/wands), the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

This is one of the most confused topics in the core rules, because numerous designers have gone back-and-forth about denying that this phrase is in the DMG. (There's similar ones in the sections on Armor and Weapons.) The DMG errata finally included an addition that says this doesn't mean what you think it means, but to me that seems contradictory.

I have a web page attempting to further clarify the issue. Two points before closing:

- The Pearl of Power is the single most brought up example in these discussions. Yes, the caster level is probably too high and should have been fixed in Errata. The RPGA Living Greyhawk campaign updates the caster level to (spell level x 2) - 3 (minimum 5).

- If you revise the rules to say "other item" caster levels are not a requirement, then you also open the door to all such items having variable caster levels (though they're not ever listed that way), and needing to price such items when players change caster levels on them (for which rules are not given).

http://superdan.net.home.comcast.net/dndfaq2.html

dcollins · Mar 17, 2005

ARandomGod said:
I really wish I could find the previous thread wherein I saw people tearing the various arguements apart, but since I can't... can one of you guys point it out?

Patryn of Elvenshae · Mar 17, 2005

dcollins said:
Actually, it does. DMG, Chapter "Magic Items: Caster Level" says this:

Given that these particular lines have been errataed, it no longer says that.

And as much as he might like it to be, dcollins's opinion as put forth on his website is not RAW. The Errata, however, are.

- If you revise the rules to say "other item" caster levels are not a requirement, then you also open the door to all such items having variable caster levels (though they're not ever listed that way)*, and needing to price such items when players change caster levels on them (for which rules are not given).

No, you don't.

Or, at least, you don't always need to.

What's the difference between a Belt of Giant's Strength +4 at CL 3, and one at CL 5? The second has slightly better saves when unattended and is slightly more resistant to targeted dispels. In other words, there is nothing changing that needs to modify the price.

Certain items, however, *should be* more expensive when the CL increases - like, for instance, Boots of Levitation. Out of the DMG, these boots function for 3 minutes when activated. At a higher CL, they'll last longer. That will generally require an increase in cost. Luckily, the DMG also provides the formulae to roughly estimate that cost in the cases in which it matters.

*- The reason that they are not ever listed that way is because the item is listed as a "generic copy." If you find a random Pearl of Power, it's got a CL of 17. If you find a random Cloak of Resistance, it's got a CL of 5 - whether it's +1, +2, or +5.

ARandomGod · Mar 17, 2005

"the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level" ~ DMG

dcollins said:
This is one of the most confused topics in the core rules, because numerous designers have gone back-and-forth about denying that this phrase is in the DMG. (There's similar ones in the sections on Armor and Weapons.) The DMG errata finally included an addition that says this doesn't mean what you think it means, but to me that seems contradictory.

First off, thanks. I shall go and read that now.
Second... an opinion about nothing other than that phrase itself (and not on the entire issue). I see that phrase as being pretty much a circular and meaninless bit of text.

Of course the caster level must be as high as the item's caster level. By itself it means nothing other than A must equal A. Now, it could mean that the person creating the item must be at least the level listed under caster level in the item's description... but it could easily also mean that you can't make an item with a caster level higher than the creator of the item... which would mean (assuming it did not also mean the first, which is a semantic possibility just from that phrase alone) that the creators caster level must be as high as the caster level the creator is setting the item as.
Meaning that if you wanted to make an item with a caster level of 20 so that it would have better saves, you're SOL unless you are also at least caster level 20.

Now, of those two potential interpretations... I can't see any way out of the second one, so it must certainly be accurate (unless someone can point out the flaw there), but the second one does not imply the first, and some crucial information was left out of the original quote for the first interpretation to hold solidly.

Which isn't to say that the first interpretation is definitely not what is meant, but only that semantically it's flawed if that's what was meant to be communicated.

dcollins said:
This is one of the most confused topics in the core rules, because numerous designers have gone back-and-forth about denying that this phrase is in the DMG.

And THAT is just frustrating!
It's also a great reason to say
1) There is no spoon.
By which I mean, "Official sources have suggested different ways of handling this, In this game we will use the following:

dcollins · Mar 17, 2005

ARandomGod said:
Now, it could mean that the person creating the item must be at least the level listed under caster level in the item's description... but it could easily also mean that you can't make an item with a caster level higher than the creator of the item...

I suggest you read it in the DMG. In context, it's quite clear the way it's laid out, because it's the second of two categories.

Paraphrasing it a bit, it says "Some types of item (potions/scrolls/wands), you can set the caster level to whatever you want, up to your own level. Other types of items, the caster level is determined by the item itself."

So for a wand of fireballs, it's your latter possibility. But for boots of haste, the level is determined by the item, which is like your former possibility. There are two categories, each aligned with a different one of your suggestions -- your original post asked about Wondrous Items, which is in the "determined by item type" category.

RoTG, Item Creation and Character Level

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