RotK spoilers: The Sauruman Problem

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Eh that's not that big a deal. With the scene at Orthanic being included in the extended DVD then I can live with him wanting to pick up the pacing and get to the good parts of Return of the King, I won't miss the scene as I know it will show up on the DVD later and the non-book entralled viewers can just assume they died in the tower.

I am glad they cut the scouring of the shire out (talk about anticlimatic), the story is about them destroying the ring, why drag it out in a theater for 15 more minutes after the ring is destroyed and everybody else lives happily ever after ? Many of the people watching the movies never read the books anyway, why confuse or bore them?

Agreed. I won't miss the Orthanc stuff, but it will be great to see it on the DVD. As for the Scouring of the Shire, it definatly is anti-climatic, but it does show Tolkien's view that the world isn't a "happily ever after". I'd have loved to see the Scouring on the DVD, but I can understand why Peter Jackson didn't even film it.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I loved Bombadil in the book, but fully understand the need to cut it for time. I also understand leaving out the scouring of the shire as it realy wouldn't work from a pacing point of view in anly length film. But to not wrap up Saruman in the film (even if it will be on the DVD) is a horribly wromg deciscion. Sure from a time point of view cutting it from 8 minutes may be neccesary but leaving it out altogether is just wrong.

 

[barsoomcore]

I'm just going to say it once.

Leaving out the Scouring entirely changes the nature of the story.

I'm not saying you can't make a good film without it (though I remain skeptical), but without the Scouring the story is drastically altered from the book.

I am deeply sorry that I won't get to see a film that is more closely related to the books than these films have become, that offers similar interpretations that the books offer.

But if it's a good movie I'll still see it half-a-dozen times. I feel so cheap.

 

[durath]

Guess I'm in the minority

Wow, I guess I am in the minority here. The death of Saruman is one of my favorite scenes in the books. I don't mind altering it so that it happens at Orthanc rather than in the shire but to leave it out completely just doesn't feel right to me.

As long as it makes it onto the EE DVD I won't care, I suppose. Still, I challenge those of you who just disregard it as not that important to go back and re-read this little snippit:

"......but at that something snapped: suddenly Wormtongue rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his throat, and with a yell ran off down the lane................

....To the dismay of those who stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissloved into nothing."

I suppose I am to much of a Tolkien fan-boy but this scene is awesome. The spirit of Saruman, as it leaves his body, looks to the West. It looks to those who sent him and the other Istari; but the Valar know that of the five Istari they sent, only Gandalf stayed true to his mission. The spirit of Saruman is not welcomed back to Valinor and is met only with a cold wind.

The one scene I really hope they get right is the final parting at the Grey Havens. That scene always gets to me. Its saying a final good-bye, not only to your friends but to a way of life, the world has changed and there is no going back to the way it was. The end of an era and all that.

That's harsh stuff. I remember the look in my grandparents eyes when they would go back to their childhood farmland where time has removed all traces of what once was...it touches you somehow, I hope they can capture that type of feeling at the Grey Havens.

 

[KenM]

IMO leaving out the scouging is a good move, it would be anti climatic after the big battles that are before it. We knew it would not be in the movies for awhile.
But, people might wonder what happened to Saruman/ Wormtoungue if the scene at Isengard is cut, also, how are they going to deal with Gandalf getting the palaitiar now?

 

[jdavis]

Now THEM'S fighting words.

*fights words, loses*

Dagnabit.

But I will say that the suggestion that after the ring is destroyed everybody lives happily ever after is a massive over-simplification of the book.

*fights words, loses again*

Oh, never mind.

Yes I agree but really what are movies made from books if not a simplification of the book to it's most important elements, it's two different medias of storytelling, I got no problem with the scouring It's just that it couldn't be properly presented in a movie in under 15 minutes and how many non-book reading movie fans would really care to see it? Books can have long winded epilogs but they just don't work in movies that well. How would Return of the Jedi of worked with a 15 minute ewok party with it's own separate subplots and story tacked on at the end of the movie? Peter Jackson has made lots of cuts to the story to get it to work (many of which I dislike, like say 1/2 of two towers as a whole) that's just part of how it has to be to get a movie that people who never read the books can enjoy too.

 

[barsoomcore]

I got no problem with the scouring It's just that it couldn't be properly presented in a movie in under 15 minutes and how many non-book reading movie fans would really care to see it? Books can have long winded epilogs but they just don't work in movies that well.

Of course it COULD be properly presented. Of course, done right, the non-book-reading movie fans would find it thrilling. Of course it can work -- the idea that the Scouring is an "epilogue" isn't one I find very easy to agree with. The Scouring is the CLIMAX of the story, to me. It's the most satisfying bit in the whole story -- done right, it should be the most satisfying part of the movie, too.

Peter Jackson has made lots of cuts to the story to get it to work (many of which I dislike, like say 1/2 of two towers as a whole) that's just part of how it has to be to get a movie that people who never read the books can enjoy too.

Of course when translating from one medium to another changes must be made. I am unconvinced that removing the Scouring is a good change -- but of course none of us have seen the movie yet so maybe he's made a work of genius like he did with the first film. It's certainly possible.

It's okay, I'm calm. Move along, folks, nothing to see here...

 

[Dimwhit]

Of course it COULD be properly presented. Of course, done right, the non-book-reading movie fans would find it thrilling. Of course it can work -- the idea that the Scouring is an "epilogue" isn't one I find very easy to agree with. The Scouring is the CLIMAX of the story, to me. It's the most satisfying bit in the whole story -- done right, it should be the most satisfying part of the movie, too.

So I've only read the LotR books once, and it was in French (not my native language). I have no memory of The Scouring, and I'm curious. Care to give me the 50 words or less version of it? I suggest putting it in spoiler tags, but if it's not in the movie, there might not be any point.

 

[barsoomcore]

Spoiler

After the Ring is destroyed, the hobbits return to the Shire, only to find that Saruman has taken over and turned their homey little paradise into an opressive, industrial wasteland. A resistance force is quickly raised and Saruman's forces are speedily dispatched. Saruman himself is allowed to go free by Frodo, but Wormtongue kills his former master and runs off. Sam becomes Mayor and sets about fathering more children than any long-suffering hobbit woman should be asked to bear.

The reason I always found it so enthralling was the small scale of it all and yet how important, how truly sad it was. Frodo spends the whole time trying to get everyone to avoid fighting, and although he accepts the necessity ("You won't get them to surrender just by looking shocked and sad, my dear Frodo," is I think Merry's line), he never takes part in the battles and, as I said, would even spare Saruman's life when the villain is at last brought to bay.

 

[Dimwhit]

Spoiler

After the Ring is destroyed, the hobbits return to the Shire, only to find that Saruman has taken over and turned their homey little paradise into an opressive, industrial wasteland. A resistance force is quickly raised and Saruman's forces are speedily dispatched. Saruman himself is allowed to go free by Frodo, but Wormtongue kills his former master and runs off. Sam becomes Mayor and sets about fathering more children than any long-suffering hobbit woman should be asked to bear.

The reason I always found it so enthralling was the small scale of it all and yet how important, how truly sad it was. Frodo spends the whole time trying to get everyone to avoid fighting, and although he accepts the necessity ("You won't get them to surrender just by looking shocked and sad, my dear Frodo," is I think Merry's line), he never takes part in the battles and, as I said, would even spare Saruman's life when the villain is at last brought to bay.

Hmm, that's very interesting. I could certainly see people being upset at that not being there. On the other hand, he may have left it out just to spare the poor audience. These are exhausting movies, and I suspect the third one will be even more so. Adding that at the end might be cruel and unusual punishment! I mean, the ring finally gets destroyed (I'm not giving too much away, am I? ), the war is over...to spring that on the audience at the end, it might be more than is necessary. I think that dynamic would translate much differently on film than it does in a book.

I really don't know, though. I guess we'll just wait and see...

Thanks for the review on that part, barsoomcore!