RPG Illegal File Sharing Hurts the Hobby

Corsair said:
Yarrr.

I'm a pirate.



I But having a pdf of a book I never use isn't hurting a publisher


You say that, yet this thread is full of publishers that say it does hurt them. It is their hard work, blood sweat and tears that made those books that people say have no value if they get them for free. Impulse buying and poor purchases probably make a significant chuck of the RPG products sold. How many thread have you read about people having shelves full of books they will never use. It is good that you support the hobby, but trying to say it is a vicimless crime is a copout.
 

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That a product is never used by the pirate is immaterial- if I buy a $0.50 ear of corn and let it rot on my kitchen counter, I've still acquired and wasted a consumer good. If I steal the ear of corn and do the same, I owe that farmer (and his shipper, etc) that same amount.

round and round....

You do understand the complete dead end flaw in this analogy, right?

You mean that one is a physical good and one is a good that is either entirely electronic or exists simultaneously in a physical and a co-equal electronic state?

I don't see that as a flaw. Theft is theft, regardless of the physical nature of the object stolen. The only way in which the physical state of an object matters is in the methods of theft available to the thief, that is, the physical nature of the object to be stolen affects how easy or difficult the theft ultimately becomes.

If I wish to rob banks, I can go in with a gun and a mask and demand physical cash, or I can hack my way into the international electronic banking system and misdirect electronic cash transfers. That one method relies obtains physical objects directly and the other obtains data that may be transmogrified into physical objects is...immaterial. :cool:

If I buy an option on a movie script and never use it, I cost the writer what is called an opportunity cost There, its the cost of him being able to shop it to someone else who might actually be interested in producing the script.

Not sure how that really matters, but you resolved your own issue here when you used the word "buy" at the start of the example.

Apologies...that was meant to read "If I buy an option on a movie script and never intend to use it...

Perception is a powerful motivator. In reality, fresh water is one of the most valuable substances on earth, yet we waste it in all kinds of ways because we don't factor all of the appropriate costs into acquiring & using it. If we did, it would cost more than oil on an equivalent volume basis.


um, You're saying that wasting water makes it less expensive?

No, I'm saying that because we percieve the value of fresh water as lower than it really is, we waste more of it than we would if we integrated all of the costs associated with obtaining fresh water into its price.

While water covers 70% of the Earth's surface, only 3% of that water is fresh water, and only .03% of THAT is surface water. It has been estimated that 99.7% of all water in Earth's ecosystem is usable by humans for ingestion.(Water )
 

Dannyalcatraz said:
If I wish to rob banks, I can go in with a gun and a mask and demand physical cash, or I can hack my way into the international electronic banking system and misdirect electronic cash transfers. That one method relies obtains physical objects directly and the other obtains data that may be transmogrified into physical objects is...immaterial. :cool:

In either case, the person you take the money from no longer has it. That is not the case with pirated pdfs.
 

I wish we could all just agree that violation of copyright law is not the same as theft, robbery, piracy or cruelty to kittens, but that doesn't make it right. Not because it's inherently naughty, but because it violates the social contract of commerce.

I do agree that creators are dependant upon their works to make a living, and circumventing the terms under which they distribute their work unjustly deprives them of livelihood. Unjust, you know--not a moral wrong. I mean, I might not get a raise I think I deserve or I might get fired. It's not wrong -- it's just a fact of the system. Every business has its liabilities.

I don't think that's really the problem. The problem is people not buying products. Whatever the reason or resort, they're buying less. The industry as a whole isn't competing well against other things. Like gas. :( So they need to adapt and improve.

I've bought a lot of d20 books over the past 5 years, both print and electronic, and what I can say is that the last thing I need is another book. With career, family, etc., prepping and playing is hard enough to fit in. So far, most of the books out there only complicate things. If you want my money, fix that.

Anything I buy also must be easy to incorporate into my setting and work into my existing plots. Maybe this new locale kit from WotC will fit that. They are becoming more practical in their lines. I just bought Heroes of Battle, and I did a virtual thumb-through before buying it at my FLGS. I'm very happy with it, but I would not have bought it sight unseen.

Amazon has a good start, and some publishers on RPGNow do a decent job as well, but I'd really like to see the whole thing rather than an excerpt. I might be interested in a book for a specific rule that isn't in the excerpt. Let us see the whole thing; show some faith in your product and in your prospective customers. I won't buy protected PDFs, but I wouldn't mind a free time-bombed version that I can look at for a few days before deciding whether to buy.

I don't want to use it without buying it, but I don't want to buy it if I can't use it.

:npy:
 

Aus_Snow said:
Oh dear.

Now, when you say "it shouldn't", do you mean "it wouldn't"? Or do you literally mean what you typed? Please, clarify. There's a world of difference there.

That's quite aside from the rather obviously over-the-top and flailing um. . . rebuttal (?).

Since when did acts such as murdering, kicking babies, etc. enter into this? Well, apart from just then of course. Strikes me as a woefully ineffective attempt at diversion.

Hm, anyway. Peer influence is a real and powerful thing. If you believe it not to be, in some broad and real sense (i.e., other than simply pertaining to you, in reality or otherwise), feel free to explain how and why this might hold true in whichever universe you prefer, bearing in mind that pulling out irrelevant extremes is not likely to be of much utility in that process.

All I'm saying is that because one person brings a pirated copy of a book to a game, and the other players really like the product, it does not follow that the rest of the group will surely go and find a pirated copy themselves. That theory holds about as much water as the ice cream and rape theory.

And yeah, my analogy was a bit extreme. :o
 

In either case, the person you take the money from no longer has it. That is not the case with pirated pdfs.

True...but that is part of the nature of a purely electronic good- you can steal it without depriving the original creator of posession.

There are VERY FEW goods that have that characteristic.

I wish we could all just agree that violation of copyright law is not the same as theft, robbery, piracy

But I'm not using the term "theft" without reason. Violation of Copyright law by making unauthorized duplicates IS a subcategory of theft.

Black's Law Dictionary
Theft: A popular name for larceny. The act of stealing. The taking of property without the owner's consent...obtaining or exerting unauthorized control over property...

(emphasis mine)

The person or company who produced the .pdf has set a price for his IP; in order to obtain lawful control of that property, you must meet the IP producer's threshold of paying him that price. When you download the .pdf without paying for it, you are exerting unauthorized control, aka Theft.

You can look around- most of the first world nations (those that have the most to lose from IP piracy) will have a similar definition codified in their laws somewhere, but they aren't alone.

And even if you go back to the old crime of larceny...

Black's Law Dictionary
Larceny:...The unlawful taking and carrying away of property of another with intent to appropraite it to use inconsistent with the latter's rights

While you cannot literally "carry away" purely electronic goods, you are still using it in a manner inconsistent with the IP producer's rights.

But back to the modern world...

If you photocopy my unpublished jewelry design plans and sell or even give them to someone else, you have definitely stolen from me, regardless of the fact that I still have my original copies.

While I can probably still produce my piece of jewelry, I cannot sell that design to the person to whom you have sold/given it to. Odds are good that I can't sell it to you, either.

And if you sold that design to Zales, who subsequently beats me to the copyright office, I may not be able to do anything with my design.
 

Digital M@ said:
You say that, yet this thread is full of publishers that say it does hurt them. It is their hard work, blood sweat and tears that made those books that people say have no value if they get them for free. Impulse buying and poor purchases probably make a significant chuck of the RPG products sold. How many thread have you read about people having shelves full of books they will never use. It is good that you support the hobby, but trying to say it is a vicimless crime is a copout.

If he's purchased hardcover copies of 75% of the books he's grabbed files for, is it the same thing? The publisher is still getting his money for the book, from the person who was grabbing the PDFs.

Personally I'm less concerned about that than the players who aren't purchasing anything, but are downloading dozens or hundreds of books.

None of it's cool, but on a scale of grey, I don't find one as bad as the other.

Banshee
 

interwyrm said:
In either case, the person you take the money from no longer has it. That is not the case with pirated pdfs.

The fact is, we live in a world where intangible things actually do have value. It is artificial value, but it has been constructed as a legal fiction because it serves a goal for all of society. For example, a corporation is intangible; the difference between a collection of buildings, capital equipment, and a room stuffed with employees and a company is nothing more than the consensual fiction that there is an entity that is the company. Our society has built was of formalizing that consensus -- articles of incorporation, for example.

Someone fixated on the absolutely concrete could say that the bankruptcy of a company is inconsequential because the existence of a company is nonmaterial to begin with. No persons winked out of existence; no equipment suddenly broke when a judge made dissolution of the corporation official. But if you owned stock in Enron, or Worldcom, or any other failed company, you might look askance at someone who told you to stop complaining because your shares are now worthless -- after all, no one took those shares away from you!

If I own a company, and it has 1000 shares of stock, and I sell you 400 shares, and tell you that you now own 40% of the company and its assets...and then I declare that we now have 9,000 more shares, and they belong to me, and I'm selling them to someone else to fund a new car I want to buy...would you accept it if I told you that you shouldn't complain because I didn't take your shares away, I just reproduced them -- I didn't steal your shares! I didn't take any money away from you!

However, obviously I devalued your shares. You used to own 40% of the company. Now you own 4%.

(For another example: If I run the central bank and I print enough currency to double the amount in circulation, in order to buy yachts for my family and cronies, I could also say that I haven't taken any money out of your or anyone's pocket so it's not theft...but how far would that defense go in protecting me from an angry mob?)

In most of the world today, intellectual properties actually are meaningful and valuable; conspicuously so in the countries that display the most innovation and creativity and economic health. People pay significant money to own the legal fiction known as a "patent" or a "copyright," or to license the use of one of them. Whatever disagreements we may have with the application of patent law or the absurdities of Disney-created eternal copyright extensions, the basic fact remains that this is a fundamental part of our economic structure.

The value of an intellectual property, like any capital asset, is based on the future revenue it may generate. If some part of its potential market simply need not buy it, because they can obtain it for free, that reduces its value. If pirates persuade more and more people that downloading copyrighted material is at worst morally neutral, and perhaps even doing the creators a favor, this is a really big deal for anyone who makes a living determining the value of intellectual property and making investments based on that analysis (which, as a publisher, is one of the things that I do).

When the patent on a drug expires, and chemically identical generics become cheaply available, the intellectual property of that patent goes from "worth something" (a government-protected monopoly on a revenue stream) to "worth almost nothing" (anyone can now make the drug, so the only residual value is consumer trust and goodwill, trademarks on the drug name, branding, etc.). If your company had a patent and, say, it is overturned by a court, your company is suddenly worth substantially less.

Just as intellectual property rights are legal fictions, so too are any property rights, really. Suppose you could buy land in one of two countries. In Country A there is a strong belief that people own land, and the government has a history over centuries of protecting rights of ownership. In Country B, there have been periodic periods of nationalization, when some party sweeps into power and tries (and maybe succeeds) in redistributing land and wealth from people who are perceived to have more than they need, to those who need it; the people now in power assure you that they respect your rights as a potential land-owner, and they tell you that moreover periods of nationalization/redistribution have ultimately led to a generally higher quality of life, which should lead to higher property values as more people have been lifted out of poverty and so have money to bid up asset prices. Leave aside the question of which approach is "right" (the political arguments). All else being equal, would you invest in land in Country A or B? Or, if you owned otherwise comparable plots of land in both countries, which would be worth more?

Well, this is a similar situation to what game publishers face. If the rent is really high in Country B, relative to the cost of buying the land, the chance of losing your property to the government or squatters or what have you may be worth the risk. Similarly, if the returns on investment from an RPG in the short term are good enough (like the early-days sales of d20), publishers will accept the risk that the future revenue stream will be substantially impaired. But if you can expect the same or better return in another area, without facing the hard to quantify risk of losing control of your property in the future, that's the business strategy to pursue.
 

Digital M@ said:
You say that, yet this thread is full of publishers that say it does hurt them. It is their hard work, blood sweat and tears that made those books that people say have no value if they get them for free. Impulse buying and poor purchases probably make a significant chuck of the RPG products sold. How many thread have you read about people having shelves full of books they will never use. It is good that you support the hobby, but trying to say it is a vicimless crime is a copout.

Every time I hear about someone with a shelf full of books they will never use, I think to myself "Wow, imagine what they could do with all that money!" But then again, I don't impulse buy ANYTHING, so maybe I'm a bad example. However I can say that everything I have bought I've put to use (and for that matter everything I've put to use, I've bought).
 

JRRNeiklot said:
So, if one player illegally downloads a product, brings it to the game, and his buddies decide, hey, that's cool, and 5 of them go out and buy it - 5 people who ordinarily would never even have heard of it - this HURTS the industry?


I just want to point out that this exact thing has happened to me personally. I used to know someone back in college who had literally hundreds of RPG PDF files on his computer. Oddly, this guy didn’t even play RPG games, he just had some kind of obsession with file sharing, so it’s not like the gaming industry would ever have gotten a dime out of him had he not been able to download them anyway.

One weekend while he was gone, I looked around at some of them on his computer. Most of them were books that just didn’t interest me, or just turned out to be of poor quality.

Four of them, however, caught my attention; several books from Eden Studios. I was so impressed with what I saw that I went out and bought them all. I must honestly say that this is money Eden would never have gotten from me, had I not happened to stumble across these files first.

When the books came in, I let others in my gaming community borrow them. A number of them went out and bought copies of their own, and so on.

Right? Wrong? I really don’t know. But this is one case where I don’t see how piracy “hurt” the industry.
 

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