RPG mainstream direction

[aia_2]

This morning i wanted to post a thought on this thread which draw my interest:

Best/Favorite Thin RPG Core Book

What is your favorite "thin" RPG core rules? That is, core rules in fewer pages than a big fat hardcover (or three!)? I think RPG core rulebooks are entirely too long. I think you could do even modern D&D in 100 pages, tops, if you wanted to (just as an example). I want to try something new but...

www.enworld.org

But then I thought i would have gone OT because of a "parallel thought" not centered on the discussion: I am aware that this is a question posted by a single user, but the boards are plenty of threads where the discussion among light-rules vs d&d-esque (i.e. large hardback tomes) is ongoing... Along with this, I also consider the studies of the lower and lower capacity of keeping the concentration of the human being (the most recent say it is nearly a couple of minutes!)...

I have the feeling that the mainstream is already drawn and there is no way to foresee a different direction in the long run: rules KISS-style, few indications on a nearly do-it-yourself setting so that everyone can spend less than 1h of time e get ready to play...

This would lead to some consequences:
1. D&D will for sure need to change (and follow the mainstream) or die
2. There will be no difference between players and masters (i.e. the rule book works for every one!)
3. Any game made this way will seem "light" but as a matter of fact there will be plenty of supplements to fill all the gaps left in the set of rules (similar concept of the current D&D business model: book of monsters, book of additional rules for classes, book of setting, book for specific topics like downtime, ect)
4. The discussion about the perfect game will keep on going: no one will be able to define what is best because we will always tend to a 60-page book, with everything inside, concise and precise and possibily good artworks...

Last additional point (self centered): i am really interested in such a discussion as i am writing my S&S game, it is more than 200-page long... This means 100 pages (the layout is digest book) but there no or litte artworks so far... It is hard to fulfill all these requirements!

 

[MichaelSomething]

All hail the free hand of the market! May it invisibly guide us to paradise!!

 

[Yora]

The mainstream is whatever D&D does.

There really are only three categories of games as influence and trends are concerned: D&D, D&D imitators, and anti-D&Ds.

 

[overgeeked]

I am aware that this is a question posted by a single user, but the boards are plenty of threads where the discussion among light-rules vs d&d-esque (i.e. large hardback tomes) is ongoing... Along with this, I also consider the studies of the lower and lower capacity of keeping the concentration of the human being (the most recent say it is nearly a couple of minutes!)...

We're to the point where the only thing that will get someone's attention is to grab 'em by the throat and not let go. That's not very conducive to massive rulebooks that require hours of reading to even begin to understand, that said...

I have the feeling that the mainstream is already drawn and there is no way to foresee a different direction in the long run: rules KISS-style, few indications on a nearly do-it-yourself setting so that everyone can spend less than 1h of time e get ready to play...

The mainstream in RPGs is whatever D&D does. Then a few months later most game companies will ape that. Thankfully WotC is doing public "playtests" again, so we can see where the mainstream will be, roughly, in two year's time.

This would lead to some consequences:
1. D&D will for sure need to change (and follow the mainstream) or die

That's backwards. For all intents and purposes D&D is the RPG industry. Everyone else are bit players in WotC's industry. If non-WotC game companies want to be noticed, they need to copy or write D&D-compatible books.

2. There will be no difference between players and masters (i.e. the rule book works for every one!)

There are indie games that try to do this. It doesn't tend to work out that well. Especially if the players come from more mainstream style games, which the overwhelmingly vast majority of gamers do.

3. Any game made this way will seem "light" but as a matter of fact there will be plenty of supplements to fill all the gaps left in the set of rules (similar concept of the current D&D business model: book of monsters, book of additional rules for classes, book of setting, book for specific topics like downtime, ect)

Unfortunately that's the dominant model. Put out an "incomplete" game and push supplements to add more rules and more "options". Great for business, terrible for game design and gamers.

4. The discussion about the perfect game will keep on going: no one will be able to define what is best because we will always tend to a 60-page book, with everything inside, concise and precise and possibily good artworks...

Mostly because different people have different preferences. You might love fantasy rules-heavy games, but I love horror rules-light games. So your "perfect" and my "perfect" are diametrically opposed.

 

[schneeland]

The mainstream is whatever D&D does.

There really are only three categories of games as influence and trends are concerned: D&D, D&D imitators, and anti-D&Ds.

I would agree to the first part, but not necessarily to the second - even though D&D and D&D-likes (and there, for the most part, Pathfinder) make up a large portion of the market, but labeling something like PbtA or FitD games as anti-D&D seems like a stretch to me.

 

[Emirikol]

Gads I hate 600 page rulebooks. Split it into an epic level crap book that 20% of the players will ever use, a DMG+World Book (if not D*D), and a MM.
The direction that most of the games I'm playing now, ALIENS, (Blade runner), Vaesen, Flames of Freedom, and WFRP still have the giant rulebooks..and starter sets. THat makes for a crap ton of clutter.

 

[Lanefan]

Along with this, I also consider the studies of the lower and lower capacity of keeping the concentration of the human being (the most recent say it is nearly a couple of minutes!)...

A sad development in and of itself; which if catered to only continues the spiral.

I have the feeling that the mainstream is already drawn and there is no way to foresee a different direction in the long run: rules KISS-style, few indications on a nearly do-it-yourself setting so that everyone can spend less than 1h of time e get ready to play...

While there is and always will be some market for this type of game, for it to ever reach mainstream status (a la D&D in 1983 or 2022) a series of unlikely things would need to happen:
--- one game among the many would have to rise above the rest and become completely dominant within that game-style's market, i.e. become the not-even-close biggest fish (or, ideally, the only fish) in its own pond
--- that dominant game would then need to engineer (or luck into) some sort of significant pop-culture breakthrough in order to attract mainstream attention
--- D&D would need to either get out of the way or be pushed aside.

The only one of these three things remotely likely to ever happen is the second one, and I'm not holding my breath on it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It is VERY difficult to knock established brands from the pinnacle of their markets. It usually requires actual mistakes on that brand’s part.

When the brand’s name is/has been used as a synonym for the market it‘s part of by a significant percentage of the population (note: not limited by the boundaries of the brand’s actual market) that’s even rarer.

D&D is the biggest name in RPGs. Its name has been used as a label for the entire hobby (though less often now than before). It has always been a major force in the market, even when it was temporarily not the #1 selling RPG out there.

So, while it’s theoretically possible it could be permanently eclipsed by a game such as you describe, it isn’t all that probable, (At least not in the short term.)

 

[Deset Gled]

It is VERY difficult to knock established brands from the pinnacle of their markets. It usually requires actual mistakes on that brand’s part.

When the brand’s name is/has been used as a synonym for the market it‘s part of by a significant percentage of the population (note: not limited by the boundaries of the brand’s actual market) that’s even rarer.

I think the size of the market is probably the most critical part to consider.

D&D has grown by huge amounts over the last few years. It it continues to grow at this rate, it is inevitable that the player base will start to fragment more, as a larger market supports more specialization. More people in the market will support more actively published games; some of those games will be rules light, some will be rules heavy. It will be really interesting to see how that plays out. Maybe D&D will support multiple versions again. Maybe third party products will pick up the slack and start to challenge D&D. We don't really know what playstyle will end up on top.

But, of course, that assuming it continues to grow at this rate. And that's a really big assumption. I get the impression a lot of these "where is the industry going" threads are assuming the trend will continue.

 

[MNblockhead]

Well, the wonderful thing about the Internet is explosion of choice is that we are not limited to the mainstream. I love D&D and it is nice that it is mainstream enough to occasionally be able to have a conversation about it with strangers. It is nice to talk about something other than sports or the weather now and them.

I also love playing "indie" games that push the envelop of what TTRPGing can be. Dialect, InSPECTREs, GRIM, etc.

What bores me are the mainstream games that are "like D&D, but tweaked." I can enjoy playing them, but I never been interested in investing a lot of time or money in them because the closer it is to D&D, the more I can just play what I already have, maybe with some homebrew inspired by similar games.

 

[aia_2]

What bores me are the mainstream games that are "like D&D, but tweaked." I can enjoy playing them, but I never been interested in investing a lot of time or money in them because the closer it is to D&D, the more I can just play what I already have, maybe with some homebrew inspired by similar games.

Well, you can have even the other way round: this would be interesting to my eyes instead! I mean: instead of playing D&D you can have fun to play a "tweaked" version of it... That's the main idea of the OSR movement...

 

[MNblockhead]

Well, you can have even the other way round: this would be interesting to my eyes instead! I mean: instead of playing D&D you can have fun to play a "tweaked" version of it... That's the main idea of the OSR movement...

I get it. As a player I have enjoyed DCC, Swords and Wizardry, and Pathfinder. I'm writing as a DM. I already have more 5e stuff than I'll ever have time to play through. I'm already familiar with the rules and just don't have the or shelf space to invest in another, similar game.

That said, I am a bit of hypocrite here. I did back the DCC Dying Earth box set and modules. Partly out of nostalgia but also the rules and setting feel like they would give a very different flavor of game play. But I'm looking to run this as a mini-campaign at some point. It is just difficult for me to see something that supplants D&D 5e as my main campaign.

 

[aramis erak]

This morning i wanted to post a thought on this thread which draw my interest:

Best/Favorite Thin RPG Core Book

What is your favorite "thin" RPG core rules? That is, core rules in fewer pages than a big fat hardcover (or three!)? I think RPG core rulebooks are entirely too long. I think you could do even modern D&D in 100 pages, tops, if you wanted to (just as an example). I want to try something new but...

www.enworld.org

But then I thought i would have gone OT because of a "parallel thought" not centered on the discussion: I am aware that this is a question posted by a single user, but the boards are plenty of threads where the discussion among light-rules vs d&d-esque (i.e. large hardback tomes) is ongoing... Along with this, I also consider the studies of the lower and lower capacity of keeping the concentration of the human being (the most recent say it is nearly a couple of minutes!)...

I have the feeling that the mainstream is already drawn and there is no way to foresee a different direction in the long run: rules KISS-style, few indications on a nearly do-it-yourself setting so that everyone can spend less than 1h of time e get ready to play...

This would lead to some consequences:
1. D&D will for sure need to change (and follow the mainstream) or die

D&D is the mainstream. Even when it was not the #1 seller, it was still top 5 in sales and online play. And the game holding better than D&D 4E was also, essentially, D&D. Namely, Pathfinder.

There's no major public outcry for lighter rules than 5E. That's an aspect of the RPG forum culture, not of D&D fandom. The noisy fringe. We are loud, proud, and, sadly, irrelevant to D&D sales.

 

[aia_2]

I fully agree that D&D was and is the mainstream. My question is that, given the current development of human behavior and capabilities, i have some doubts that D&D will be the mainstream if it keeps the actual approach (large ruleset, many options/classes/mainly useless add-ons...).
It is like Kodak Films at the dawn of digital camera...

 

[RivetGeekWil]

I fully agree that D&D was and is the mainstream. My question is that, given the current development of human behavior and capabilities, i have some doubts that D&D will be the mainstream if it keeps the actual approach (large ruleset, many options/classes/mainly useless add-ons...).
It is like Kodak Films at the dawn of digital camera...

It's the same approach it's had for the last 40 years. It's not going to stop being mainstream when it's been growing revenue in the double digits year over year for the past couple years.

D&D is for all intents and purposes its own hobby. That's not going to change.

 

[aia_2]

It's the same approach it's had for the last 40 years. It's not going to stop being mainstream when it's been growing revenue in the double digits year over year for the past couple years.

D&D is for all intents and purposes its own hobby. That's not going to change.

I really hope you are right but let me add that the top executives of Kodak used to think the same thought...

 

[RivetGeekWil]

I really hope you are right but let me add that the top executives of Kodak used to think the same thought...

I don't hope I'm right. I can't spit without hitting somebody confusing D&D for all RPGs and thinking that they all are played the same way.

 

[aramis erak]

I don't hope I'm right. I can't spit without hitting somebody confusing D&D for all RPGs and thinking that they all are played the same way.

Yup.

Many newer D&D players get rather shocked to find out any of the following...

• Their group's particular playstyle isn't used by the group next door,, despite using the same edition (Youtuber Ginny Di mentions this revelation early in her D&D playing)
• Very few groups actually resemble Critical Role (often to mixed dismay and relief)
• Prior editions were quite different in tone and mechanics.
  • Especially different in their utter lack of consideration of political correctness
• That there are (quite literally) thousands of different RPG rulesets
• D&D isn't the simplest RPG in print
• That D&D rules are quite different from many other RPG systems in terms of mechanics
• That many RP gamers (5% to 15% ?) dislike and/or hold disdain for D&D 5e for a variety of reasons.

We, as a clade, the internet discussion gamers, are a small fraction... and predisposed to be more open to non-D&D simply because we are exposed to more of it... and generally more likely to have higher rate of greybeards... (My gray is exclusive to my beard at the moment... I cut my RPG teeth in summer of '81, and wargaming in fall of '78.)


We, as a clade, need to be careful not to scare the new or mono-system gamers away from the panoply of other RPG experiences. Part of that is not trashing D&D (nor their favorite non-D&D if they have one) to them.

 

[aia_2]

Ah, sorry! In my landscape i forgot another essential feature: we are moving with a quick pace towards the dematerialization... We will likely have no more books or paper in the next years, especially for "leisure" reasons... This is another aspect the inteligentia of D&D should consider as well...

 

[aramis erak]

Ah, sorry! In my landscape i forgot another essential feature: we are moving with a quick pace towards the dematerialization... We will likely have no more books or paper in the next years, especially for "leisure" reasons... This is another aspect the inteligentia of D&D should consider as well...

Most of us have... but truth be told, D&D, Pathfinder, FFG/Edge Star Wars, Palladium, and a dozen others are having no problem selling dead tree to youth. (I'm sure Kevin Siembieda is regretting to a point that the perfect binding he chose for everything after the Mechanoids trilogy is so damned durable - many of Palladium's books have been sold and resold a half-dozen times or more, cutting into his sales.)
Most of the OSR crowd I'm seeing online aren't greybeards, either... they're 20's and 30's, too young to have been around when the games they're tweaking were actually in first use... and they, too, are seeking dead tree. Often, FTF OSR groups play with a "no electronics at the table" rule.

Also, paper's renewable and requires only light to use; digital requires electricity or being printed... and most electricity isn't from renewable/perpetual sources.

Paper has got at least another edition of relevance in the first world nations, and 2+ in (no offense intended) in the 2nd world nations in South America, Asia, and the Middle East. Probably more than that, double or triple that, really -- today's teens are the first gen raised with ebooks and mandatory laptops in the first world, and not even universally so yet. It's the phones that are the nigh universal tool, and I've seen only one RPG book that was readily readable and useable on that mode: Pugmire Phone Edition.

The race to paperless is a long way from the finish line, and not just from us 50+ gamers wanting dead tree. I know a bunch of 30-somethings who, while they play online, only play games they own on dead tree. Far more conservative than me, to be honest, on that score.