RPGNow Expanding...

So they should just be sent to their room
Umm... no.

This is not what is happening. If you wake up one day and decide you like jeans so why not start making your own, do you expect that you'll be selling your product in the biggest retailer of jeans right from word go? Absolutely not. If you have worked for Levis for 10 years, starting in manufacturing, working in design and then moving on to management before deciding to start making your own jeans you'd be in a better position to bargain with. Why is it you think that neophyte publishers are any different? What does the industry owe them by default merely because they've decided to try publishing if they haven't had the good sense to do the leg work themselves?

I'm all for answering questions and helping where and when I can but I've hardly got the time or inclination to give someone a free business plan or train them on layout, graphic design, editing and whatever else they come into the industry lacking. Helping does not mean I have to devote myself to filling in the gaps in someone's business they should be responsible for.

You got a break as a freelancer, a lot of people don't.
I didn't get a "break" at squat. I thought I had the chops and I began sending stuff in for companies to look at. I talked to publishers. I did the leg work. Nobody took pity on me and decided to take me under their wing. A lot of people coming into the PDF industry don't even go that far--they jump right to publishing and then wonder why it is that they don't seem to have clue one as to how to go about doing it, so they ask other publishers and then a good many get pissed off because those publishers nice enough to answer their questions have agreed with them that their ideas are the best thing that the rpg industry will ever see.

Thats inability to get work is not necessarily an indication of a lack of talent, so what other options do people have?
Nor is having a good idea any indication of the necessary talent to produce it properly. Good ideas far outnumber ability to produce them, which is why so many people would be better off consolidating into talent pools, especially if they have absolutely no prior rpg experience.

And do you know what? Even if you have an idea AND talent it still doesn't mean anyone in the rpg industry owes you a single thing. You still have to prove you're willing to do the work and put your own money at risk to become a success. Do you know why so many of the small publishers have hand-drawn or clipart logos? Why they host on geocities or don't have sites at all? Because they don't even have enough confidence in their own company to put some money into it. Now, if such publishers aren't willing to illustrate a confidence in their own business, why should any other publisher or customer for that matter?

Actually, this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying there should be a balance between commercialism and community and trying, increasingly unsuccessfully, to get some idea where that could be! I'm suffering for Cuban comments I know it
My question to you is who are you to say that it doesn't exist? Who are you to comment on the current state? Are you a publisher? Are you a publisher who is doing more than making a Geocities account? Are you a publisher who has spent money on getting good artists rather than putting together your product illos yourself with pencil crayons and a scanner? It's very easy to be an outsider looking in--someone with no actual investment in what you're discussing--and say "this is how it should be!" than it is to be someone with your own money invested in a start-up company and have a bunch of people tell you that you're not doing enough to help your competition when you can clearly see how much of your competition isn't even willing to first help themselves.

What the Edge will hopefully do (I'm not yet convinced of this, but it's not even in operation yet so I'll reserve judgement) is give such neophytes a place to test themselves and either come to terms with whether or not they're cracked up to be in the biz. It will be a lot easier to measure that if the divide between you and the competition isn't as wide--in other words, it's a lot easier to see how you're doing as a little guy if you're only measuring your business' progress against other guys rather than someone like Green Ronin or Ronin Arts. Because, whether you want to admit it or not, a mere desire to publish RPGs is nowhere remotely the same as expecting other companies to help keep you afloat because you can't do it yourself.

So, am I right in thinking you view this as a matter of professionalism and see the encouragement of this as the way support and strengthen the industry?
I think that showing people looking to get into the biz they can only expect so much if they're not willing to push their companies to the point where they will be considered serious businesses that they shouldn't expect special consideration is a good thing. It will hopefully drive them more or get them to quit early before they waste unnecessary amounts of money learning the same lesson later on. And yes, I also hope that such lessons will strengthen the industry by showing the customers that the PDF industry should be taken seriously and isn't all just a bunch of gamers who know how to save files as PDFs, which is, I'm afraid to say, a VERY common perception of the PDF industry.

If big publishers want to take that opinion what right do they have to expect small publishers to try to take on the kind of professional approach you believe in?
The big publishers do not exist to subsidize my small press company. If I'd started Misfit Studios with that belief I'd definately be an idiot and poor businessman. As for the big publisher's "right" -- well, "right' isn't the correct term. The fact is that they are in a position to tell retailers that they either do something about enforcing quality control or they move somewhere else. Why and how? Because they bring a LOT more money to those retailers than the small press all do COMBINED. That's not just saying something about dollars and cents, that's saying something about how the businesses are being run--the big guys got where they are for a reason and if the smaller guys don't examine those reasons and see how they can best apply them to their own businesses, well, those small publishers are fools for letting their pride make their business decisions for them.

If there is an obligation then big companies have more capacity so should lead by examples, not discussed earlier want to get rid of compettition that doesn't really affect them.
They do lead by example. Do you know what I did prior to starting up Misfit Studios? Called my contacts and asked questions. I went to messageboards and emailing lists and read what publishers had to say there. I contacted businessmen I knew and asked general questions about running a business. Now, not everyone has contacts to call but everyone can certainly join those messageboards and talk to businessmen for advice.

While it is wise to say that the big pulishers should lead by example, it is foolish to believe that the big publishers should wait for the rest of us to catch up to them.
 

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eyebeams said:
Conversely, I'd like the wannabes to actually do the work required to earn a place or get out of my way. Comprende?
Totally.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that undetermined people deserve a free ride in.
 

Roudi said:
I don't think anyone here is arguing that undetermined people deserve a free ride in.
I don't know--some of the points put forth by some people other than yourself pretty much equate to that. Because this industry tends towards being very friendly, open and allows the consumers access to the people in it like you'll rarely find elsewhere, I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that this industry is still just that: an industry. It's about business--a fun business, granted, but still business.
 

rpghost said:
Actually, you're correct... The default quick search scans only one site.

Face it, the point of this was to seperate the products, not just some fancy interface that can be gotten around easy enough. If you're into Indie games or the new guy on the block. You go to edge.rpgnow.com or set your default home page to that. If you're more of a regular shopper of some of the top names on our site, you stick with the Featured site most of the time knowing you're not going to get a "gotcha" product.

For what it's worth, many of the features were rolled forward to our current site. So test them there and let us know.

James

This is my one major dislike of the new two site concept. I want to be able to search both sites as the default, not as something I have to take extra steps to accomplish. Depending how hard the 'advance search' feature is to use it may lead to my ignoring both sites.

The Auld Grump
 

TheAuldGrump said:
This is my one major dislike of the new two site concept. I want to be able to search both sites as the default, not as something I have to take extra steps to accomplish. Depending how hard the 'advance search' feature is to use it may lead to my ignoring both sites.

The Auld Grump

I agree. As I stated earlier, it just doesn't make any sense to me. However, rpghost indicated they might change this, so let's hope so!

From my PoV, it just seems a particularly restrictive way of displaying your products and really sets the edge apart, in a negative way. As a customer, if I go looking for XXXXX in the quick search on rpgnow, I'll select from those displayed, none of which, at present, will be from the new site. So they won't get my business, because I won't know that they exist.

I really hope they change this feature.
 

Steve Conan Trustrum said:
I don't know--some of the points put forth by some people other than yourself pretty much equate to that. Because this industry tends towards being very friendly, open and allows the consumers access to the people in it like you'll rarely find elsewhere, I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that this industry is still just that: an industry. It's about business--a fun business, granted, but still business.

In your opinion :p , sorry couldn't resist it :)

Nigel
 

Roudi said:
Totally.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that undetermined people deserve a free ride in.

Me neither, it just seems trying to draw out debate leads to strong reactions which, in my opinion for clarification, seem to view a question as a challenge. And in a world of free speech I've a right to an opinion and state it without having to justify what entitles me to that opinion so long as I do so within the rules of these boards.

Steve for your information we've been in business for three years and have our first print product out at the end of the year in partnership with a major publisher, so I have an investment in this industry. Not that that makes a difference to my right to put my point forward.

No more for me I'm afraid, should of quit when I first thought so, shame really :(
 

malladin said:
Me neither, it just seems trying to draw out debate leads to strong reactions which, in my opinion for clarification, seem to view a question as a challenge.
That tends to happen when you make some of the inferrences you were. And, to be clear, you weren't merely asking for clarification: you were putting forth conclusions based upon your guesses, not hard data. That's hardly clarification.

And in a world of free speech I've a right to an opinion and state it without having to justify what entitles me to that opinion so long as I do so within the rules of these boards.
And people have an equal right to tell you that you're way off base. Don't cry "FREE SPEECH! FREE SPEECH!" as an excuse for the things you say but then try and claim that there is anything wrong with how people reply to your "challenge."

Steve for your information we've been in business for three years and have our first print product out at the end of the year in partnership with a major publisher, so I have an investment in this industry. Not that that makes a difference to my right to put my point forward.
Then let me just suggest you wait a bit--say, until your product actually enters the market--before you start assuming how the industry works.
 
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malladin said:
And in a world of free speech I've a right to an opinion and state it without having to justify what entitles me to that opinion so long as I do so within the rules of these boards.

(Pet Peeve)

No, you don't.

"Free Speech" is a reference to the prohibition of Congress from enacting laws abridging the expressions of opinion. Congress has sod-all to do with anything we're talking about.

I really wish that gamers would learn this fairly simple fact of Constitutional law, and stop chucking "FREE SPEECH!" about when it doesn't apply.

(/Pet Peeve)
 

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