RPGNow Expanding...

[malladin]

Quote: Everybody knows the answer to that one.
The MAN is keeping them down, it isn't fair, you're asking to much.....
blah blah blah
Just have someone else do it for me, otherwise you're mean.

Ah, the exchange of glib witicisms. Excellent, now I feel validated!

Nigel

 

[Vigilance]

Quote: The industry still has a source of new blood. There will still be a site available for anyone, regardless of commitment level, professional resume and so forth. I realize its not the site of your choice but please don't continue saying there's no site for "new blood" or those who "just want to contribute to the hobby they love".

I promised myself no more replys to this thread but just for you chuck given your a long time contemporary whose ideas I respect. We don't agree, which is cool and healthy for debate, and I tried hard in the first post to get embroiled in the argument about the rights and wrongs of RPGNows decision. I have tried to address replies to eyebeam and his comments about how we should be greatful to even have a second site and his imposition of hallmarks of professionalism and success on everybody else, not to mention for fun. But don't ask me not to say what I believe. I don't believe the Edge will offer the same exposure, perception of worth and opportunity to new publishers and that people will be put off starting, which isn't a good thing for the reasons myself and others have stated. If people who want expand their business do not perceive the edge as an opportunity to create freely and be taken seriously so their companies grow, then it won't be. This is probably why you wish I'd stop saying the above. I'm sure you feel it will be, but neither of us can be sure. I hope I'm wrong and your right as I love this industry, even more than my cop deck and RPGNow got me started in this business so I've a soft spot for it, and it keeps me in CCG cards . . I've as much right to put my perceptions forward as you chuck, people reading this can form their own opinions based upon our reasoning and presentation of argument, and I hope you will respect that. Lets give it some time and see whose right and hope, whatever happens, the industry we all want to see succeed goes forward successfully.

Please believe me when I say I appreciate the kind words and that I am not trying to assert people on the other side of this issue don't have the right to disagree with me

I was merely trying to dissuade you from making what I saw as a mistatement in the process of disagreeing with me (that there won't be a place for newcomers to get established).

If you want to say the expansion is a bad idea because it will get less exposure, that's a conversation I think we'd both enjoy even though we know we dont agree

On the issue of dissuading people from entering the market- Im not sure anyone who CAN BE dissuaded would take it seriously anyway.

As I think back to what would have dissuaded me from dipping my toe in the pool, its hard for me to imagine. I was sending submissions to Mystic Eye, Mongoose, Bastion and Green Ronin; I was editing RPGObjects Darwin's World books; I was self publishing PDFs.

All but the last two ended with me getting some form of a rejection letter or email (when I got a reply at all!)

I was doing everything I could think of to get the attention *anyone* who I felt had a chance to give me a shot.

So its hard for me to take seriously someone who would be put off by having to start at RPG edge as opposed to RPGNow.

Chuck

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

As I said earlier, industry needs new blood

So far as new talents go, yes, the industry will always need that. New companies, however? Not so much. The combination of accessability to the market that the OGL allows, combined with the growing ease of making PDFs, has contributed to a saturated market that is seeing print runs shrink across the board because markets are dispersing while also creating a lot of product overlap. The industry needs fewer "new blood" publishers coming in saying "hey, I can make a dwarf book WAY better than the other 15 companies that have already done that!" and more individual talents lending their abilities to existing, successful product lines or creating original materials without further diffusing market focus by creating yet another company that will only put out one or two products.

Don't get me wrong, the industry certainly shouldn't be bastioned against new publishers, but there is definately a need to make new publishers reconsider if their ideas and business plans are up to the task (and necessities) of supporting the creation of yet another new company that will further splinter the market.

 

[malladin]

Quote: So far as new talents go, yes, the industry will always need that. New companies, however? Not so much. The combination of accessability to the market that the OGL allows, combined with the growing ease of making PDFs, has contributed to a saturated market that is seeing print runs shrink across the board because markets are dispersing while also creating a lot of product overlap. The industry needs fewer "new blood" publishers coming in saying "hey, I can make a dwarf book WAY better than the other 15 companies that have already done that!" and more individual talents lending their abilities to existing, successful product lines or creating original materials without further diffusing market focus by creating yet another company that will only put out one or two products.

Don't get me wrong, the industry certainly shouldn't be bastioned against new publishers, but there is definately a need to make new publishers reconsider if their ideas and business plans are up to the task (and necessities) of supporting the creation of yet another new company that will further splinter the market.

But as Chuck said, and my own experience matches, its awful tough to get a break, even with talent. So why not self publish, although I agree new materials are better than drow guide 18, loathe as I am to say it it's a free market. If others can't compete, well have a better system for recognising and utilising new talent or make your products outstanding, hopefully through the use of new talent. And we come round to the debate about what is and isn't bastioning against publishers which I'm not getting into any further.

 

[malladin]

Hey, I finally saw the quote button

Please believe me when I say I appreciate the kind words and that I am not trying to assert people on the other side of this issue don't have the right to disagree with me

My pleasure and thought not but always best to be upfront

I was merely trying to dissuade you from making what I saw as a mistatement in the process of disagreeing with me (that there won't be a place for newcomers to get established).

Appreciate that, statement was more aimed at it being an equal place

If you want to say the expansion is a bad idea because it will get less exposure, that's a conversation I think we'd both enjoy even though we know we dont agree

Preferably at a con with beers in hand, I look forward to it

On the issue of dissuading people from entering the market- Im not sure anyone who CAN BE dissuaded would take it seriously anyway.

As I think back to what would have dissuaded me from dipping my toe in the pool, its hard for me to imagine. I was sending submissions to Mystic Eye, Mongoose, Bastion and Green Ronin; I was editing RPGObjects Darwin's World books; I was self publishing PDFs.

All but the last two ended with me getting some form of a rejection letter or email (when I got a reply at all!)

I was doing everything I could think of to get the attention *anyone* who I felt had a chance to give me a shot.

So its hard for me to take seriously someone who would be put off by having to start at RPG edge as opposed to RPGNow.

I can see your point, sounds like my experience without the editing. The idealist in me looks to positive action, which the edge may well be.

See you for that drink at gen con next year, whoevers wrong is buying

Nigel

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

But as Chuck said, and my own experience matches, its awful tough to get a break, even with talent. So why not self publish,

Because, while self-publishing is relatively easy, self-publishing PROPERLY and producing GOOD product is another matter entirely. Having an idea that rocks on toast is not the same as knowing how to write, illustrate, do layout, edit, put a project together from conception to market, or run and finance a business.

although I agree new materials are better than drow guide 18, loathe as I am to say it it's a free market. If others can't compete, well have a better system for recognising and utilising new talent or make your products outstanding, hopefully through the use of new talent.

Few markets are currently as easy to get into at the moment as a PDF market, be it in the RPG industry or otherwise. All it takes is a computer and word processing software, two things that just about every household now has. That allows for an incredible possibility of a market that splinters to the point where it's no longer a matter of competition but damage.

Consider this: gold is precious because it is rare and involves specialized skills and secondary resources to get it to market properly. Now imagine that someone created a computer that allowed everyone to make gold. Sure, the people still don't necessarily have the skills to make the gold into quality products, such as a well-crafted bracelet or ring, but hey, even a half-assed gold ring or bracelet on the cheap is great if it's still something you don't have the skills or time to do for yourself. As such, it makes it harder for you to get the well-crafted stuff because they can't compete with the accessiblity that the less refined products have on the market at much reduced costs. This leads to fewer of those well-crafted products being made--not because any other companies are driving competition up to a level that forces these companies to reconsider their business structures, but rather because the market has been diluted and splintered.

While gold may seem like an odd analogy to use (rpgs certainly aren't worth as much as gold), it should give you an idea of what happens when accessiblity overshoots demand.

And we come round to the debate about what is and isn't bastioning against publishers which I'm not getting into any further.

It's not a debate--it's a proven aspect of economics. The easier it is for people to compete in any given industry, the more likely it is that everyone's income within that market will shrink because everyone's piece of the pie continues to get smaller unless new customers can be brought in at an equal or greater rate so as to ensure demand stays profitable--and we all know that there hasn't been a huge upswing in the number of gamers coming into the market, certainly not enough to match the increasing number of desktop rpg publishers who stick around enough to dilute the market but don't contribute enough by taking those extra steps and risks needed to help it grow.

You're going to be seeing the effects of this with RPGnow's split in two: small companies that weren't really taking those extra, risky steps or lacked the necessary time, resources or exposure on their own are consolidating to create companies that will compete better as united entities--certainly better than with the limited time, cash, ideas, etc. that the individuals had on their own. Such consolidations increase the chance of quality products while reducing the risk of splintering a market too much.

 

[mythusmage]

Hey, I finally saw the quote button

Next week, the 'close tag' button!

 

[Peterson]

Question - and sorry if this got covered already; A new publisher starts off on the RPG Edge site, if I understand this correctly.

However, I haven't read anything (or just missed it) that states the conditions - if any - that the new publisher could "earn" his/her place among the RPG Main Site.

So, here's the question.

What's it take (if it's even possible) for a new publisher - or even an already-established publisher - to move from the Edge to the Main Site?


Peterson

 

[malladin]

Next week, the 'close tag' button!

Hey, its taken three years to find the quote button, one thing at a time bud

Nigel

 

[malladin]

It's not a debate--it's a proven aspect of economics. The easier it is for people to compete in any given industry, the more likely it is that everyone's income within that market will shrink because everyone's piece of the pie continues to get smaller unless new customers can be brought in at an equal or greater rate so as to ensure demand stays profitable--and we all know that there hasn't been a huge upswing in the number of gamers coming into the market, certainly not enough to match the increasing number of desktop rpg publishers who stick around enough to dilute the market but don't contribute enough by taking those extra steps and risks needed to help it grow.

So, you do think the market should be bastioned against new publishers!

Nigel