RPGs are ... Role Playing Games

[The Shaman]

I must spread some XP around.

It's the thought that counts.

 

[Imaginary Number]

E pur si muove.

This is witty, if you understand Italian or have access to Wikipedia, but I'm not sure substantively where this gets you. As someone who has a little bit of both, I'm not sure quoting Galileo gets you anywhere. Given that many posters have disagreed with your premises, it seems to me that the burden is on you at this point to describe how it moves. Come?

 

[The Shaman]

Given that many posters have disagreed with your premises, it seems to me that the burden is on you at this point to describe how it moves.

I don't feel a "burden" to anyone on these boards, IN.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Originally Posted by Odhanan
RPGs are not made of "chapters".
Or "scenes". Or "story arcs". Or "plots".

Kind of at a loss as to how you can run an RPG that doesn't have at least one of those.

This is witty, if you understand Italian or have access to Wikipedia, but I'm not sure substantively where this gets you. As someone who has a little bit of both, I'm not sure quoting Galileo gets you anywhere. Given that many posters have disagreed with your premises, it seems to me that the burden is on you at this point to describe how it moves. Come?

While I cannot speak for The Shaman or his game, what I can do is provide an overview of how my game moves.

Chapters, scenes, story arcs, & plots oh my!

Each player creates and plays a character within a fantasy world. These characters have goals, desires, and needs.

The DM plays the role of that world and everything/everyone in it except the characters played by the players.

The player characters encounter elements of the game world and react in whatever manner suits them. Interaction with these elements result in adventures.

NPC's also have goals,desires, and needs. These sometimes come into conflict with those of the players and the players deal with these conflicts during play.

Chapters? Nope. Not a book. There is no need to subdivide the campaign into manageable chunks of a certain size and scope.

Scenes? Not really. The PC's may choose to "make a scene" in a public place if they so desire and NPC's likewise of course.

Story arcs? The action moves primarily around the PC's and thier activities. If there were any story arcs then it would be up to the players to write them and then try and make them happen.

Plots? Certainly. It seems that everyone in the game world has these based on the aforementioned goals desires and needs including the PC's.

I do not feel at all burdened to share this approach but it might aid in understanding.

 

[Desdichado]

I don't feel a "burden" to anyone on these boards, IN.

In that case, it wasn't witty, it was merely snarky.

 

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Odhanan
RPGs are not made of "chapters".
Or "scenes". Or "story arcs". Or "plots".






While I cannot speak for The Shaman or his game, what I can do is provide an overview of how my game moves.

Chapters, scenes, story arcs, & plots oh my!

Each player creates and plays a character within a fantasy world. These characters have goals, desires, and needs.

The DM plays the role of that world and everything/everyone in it except the characters played by the players.

The player characters encounter elements of the game world and react in whatever manner suits them. Interaction with these elements result in adventures.

NPC's also have goals,desires, and needs. These sometimes come into conflict with those of the players and the players deal with these conflicts during play.

Totally with you so far.

Chapters? Nope. Not a book. There is no need to subdivide the campaign into manageable chunks of a certain size and scope.

Really? You never write an adventure? A scenario based on the likely actions your players will take? Never run a module? All of those things look surprisingly like chapters.

Scenes? Not really. The PC's may choose to "make a scene" in a public place if they so desire and NPC's likewise of course.

Deliberately misinterpreting the definition of a word is not helpful. Again, unless every encounter you run is nothing but ad libbed random encounters, you have to design in scenes. Have you ever keyed a map? Then you have scenes.

Story arcs? The action moves primarily around the PC's and thier activities. If there were any story arcs then it would be up to the players to write them and then try and make them happen.

Do your NPC's have no goals or timelines? Unless everything in your world is absolutely static until such time as the PC's interact with it, then you have story arcs. Baron Von Badass is attempting to seize the crown is a story arc whether you like it or not.

Plots? Certainly. It seems that everyone in the game world has these based on the aforementioned goals desires and needs including the PC's.

I do not feel at all burdened to share this approach but it might aid in understanding.

If you have plots, and characters, then you have stories. That's all it takes. You have every element a story needs - character, plot, setting. Trying to claim that your game has none of these things is pretty self-contradictory.

 

[billd91]

Me: "So, the droid deals 22 damage to you"
Player: "I use a Destiny point to not die"
Me: Your stunt double goes flying off into the scenery on fire, and you get back onto the set at 1 HP

(Proof that games CAN be movies)

That reminds me of It Came from the Late, Late, Late Show RPG. PCs could call for their stunt double. Awesome game.

 

[Desdichado]

Chapters? Nope. Not a book. There is no need to subdivide the campaign into manageable chunks of a certain size and scope.

Wait... so, your game isn't run in sessions? Do you have some kind of continuous gaming paradigm going on? Play by post or something?

Scenes? Not really. The PC's may choose to "make a scene" in a public place if they so desire and NPC's likewise of course.

That seems like a needlessly pedantic nitpick. If you don't have scenes, then nothing actually happens in your game. Or; there's no pacing control. Everything happens in realtime. You never fast-forward to the exciting stuff. A random encouner in the wilderness would be, for instance, a "scene." Without scenes, you have to play out the entire journey. Every step of the way.

I don't think you really mean that there's no scenes. I think you're distorting the meaning of the word beyond common usage to advance some kind of pro-sandbox agenda.

Of course games have scenes. Of course they have sessions (which may or may not resemble chapters or episodes to some degree or another.) Even the most sandboxish game I can possibly imagine would be impossible to run otherwise.

Story arcs? The action moves primarily around the PC's and thier activities. If there were any story arcs then it would be up to the players to write them and then try and make them happen.

That doesn't make them "not story arcs."

 

[Doug McCrae]

Chapters? Nope. Not a book. There is no need to subdivide the campaign into manageable chunks of a certain size and scope.

As Hobo says, a session is analogous to a chapter. Another popular one these days is to think of sessions as episodes, and overarching plots as season arcs. In a game based on superhero comics it might be appropriate to think of sessions as issues. I don't do this btw but I don't regard it as a crazy view, or as 'not a rpg'.

Scenes? Not really. The PC's may choose to "make a scene" in a public place if they so desire and NPC's likewise of course.

The climax of Tomb of Horrors, a very linear adventure, is when the demi-lich skull rises up and starts sucking souls. That's a scene, and a dramatic one too. And I don't mean 'scene' in the hippy sense of 'quite a scene, man'. Though it would be that, too.

Story arcs? The action moves primarily around the PC's and thier activities. If there were any story arcs then it would be up to the players to write them and then try and make them happen.

GDQ is a story arc. It's a story arc as it is written, the story is clear in the text, before the PCs ever interact with it.

Plots? Certainly. It seems that everyone in the game world has these based on the aforementioned goals desires and needs including the PC's.

In the Temple of Elemental Evil, collecting the gems to place in the Orb of Golden Death is a plot. As are similar 'collect the set' MacGuffins - there are several in the 1e DMG, such as the Rod of Seven Parts and The Teeth of Dahlver-Nar. These are plots because the future events - the PCs collect one part, then another and so forth - are right there in the text.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Really? You never write an adventure? A scenario based on the likely actions your players will take? Never run a module? All of those things look surprisingly like chapters.

A non-scripted scenario can never be based entirely on likely actions the PC's might take. I have to base plans of action
for NPC's based on what they know. Depending on the situation the outlined scenario might feature
the NPC's anticipating and setting up counters for specific types of interference to being completely ignorant of the PC's at all. I am using a module in my current game [2E Return to the Keep on the
Borderlands converted to 4e]. The scenario outlines actions that NPC's plan to take and how these actions may differ if the PC's become involved.

Deliberately misinterpreting the definition of a word is not helpful. Again, unless every encounter you run is nothing but ad libbed random encounters, you have to design in scenes. Have you ever keyed a map? Then you have scenes.

It was not a misinterpretation, it was one possible definition. How does keying a map= writing a scene? If I say that Area 5 on the map is the lair of a hungry owlbear, what makes that fact alone a scene? Area 5 only becomes a scene or setting if the players interact with it. The players may give area 5 the old right hand wave and never explore it.
Area 5 contains what it contains. It is not random.

Do your NPC's have no goals or timelines? Unless everything in your world is absolutely static until such time as the PC's interact with it, then you have story arcs. Baron Von Badass is attempting to seize the crown is a story arc whether you like it or not.

Yes. NPC's have goals, tactics and resources used to acheive these goals, and sometimes these goals are time sensitive. A plot and a
timeline do not equal a story arc. The missing component is the players and their actions. Baron Von Badass attempting to seize
the throne is a plot being hatched by the Baron. A story arc by definition spans something and assumes activity and involvement by the PC's.
The purpose of a story arc is to move characters from one state to another. If the players are responsible for that movement then it cannot
be written into a pre-defined arc.

If you have plots, and characters, then you have stories. That's all it takes. You have every element a story needs - character, plot, setting. Trying to claim that your game has none of these things is pretty self-contradictory.

The end product of play does not have to equal the purpose of it.

Wait... so, your game isn't run in sessions? Do you have some kind of continuous gaming paradigm going on? Play by post or something?

It certainly is. Does a game session have to equal a chapter? Last session we ended in the middle of tense action during a brief pause. Next session we will pick up right there.

That seems like a needlessly pedantic nitpick. If you don't have scenes, then nothing actually happens in your game. Or; there's no pacing control. Everything happens in realtime. You never fast-forward to the exciting stuff. A random encouner in the wilderness would be, for instance, a "scene." Without scenes, you have to play out the entire journey. Every step of the way.
I don't think you really mean that there's no scenes. I think you're distorting the meaning of the word beyond common usage to advance some kind of pro-sandbox agenda.
Of course games have scenes. Of course they have sessions (which may or may not resemble chapters or episodes to some degree or another.) Even the most sandboxish game I can possibly imagine would be impossible to run otherwise.

Given the various definitions of scene, then yes in the sense of a locale.

That doesn't make them "not story arcs."

A story arc has a targeted end point. The DM cannot predict or write the players part and the players cannot predict or write the DM's part. The whole point of a story arc is to map the flow of the story to it's desired conclusion. A game does not have a known desired conclusion and thus the arc has no endpoint. This is a device useful for
fiction, not gameplay.