RPGshop.com sells "precision" dice; but are they Gamescience brand?

[Solodan]

Precision Gem Amethyst

I'm looking to buy some Gamescience dice, and I came across these. They fit the description, but they seem cheaper (in price) than other Gamescience sets I've come across. Can anyone verify that these aren't imitation?

I bought two sets from RPGShop and I love em. Yes, they are chessex, bt I don't know if there is a difference between them. Reading above says that it is oK.

Slightly annoying to have to paint them and file down the one imperfection (Which you should be familiar with from the gamescience vid) but it only took about an hour to do and makes my dice totally unique. Its also a bonding experience with your dice, which (though they are better distributed) makes them roll better.

Don't you just love that we go through all the expense to get the most fair dice, but then internally wish they roll better somehow. Ah, the eternal paradox of a gamer!

 

[resistor]

A program does not give you a random number, it's calculated using an algorithm, often using, say, the eigth decimal in the number previously generated.

You're wilfully and with ill intent misinterpretating my words.

No, I'm refuting the false claim you made about how supposedly bad algorithmic PRNGs are. You are, of course, correct that they're deterministic, but your above quote is gross misrepresentation of their quality.

Many die rolling programs out there are not particularily sophisticated, though.

This is pretty much irrelevant. I'm not aware of any programming languages and/or operating systems made since the 80s that don't include a decent PRNG as part of the standard functionality. The only people who write their own anymore are those who do cryptography or very statistically sensitive simulations, and then only because they need PRNGs with stronger properties than the bundled ones.

 

[wedgeski]

You're wilfully and with ill intent misinterpretating my words. I wasn't talking about sophistication, but the principle.

I don't think it was a misinterpretation, especially given your "often...eigth decimal..." quote.

I regularly have the same response as resistor (although not nearly to his level of knowledge) on other forums where folks try to claim some kind of high ground because a computer "doesn't generate truly random numbers". Gets me all hot under the collar.

 

[Henrix]

I regularly have the same response as resistor (although not nearly to his level of knowledge) on other forums where folks try to claim some kind of high ground because a computer "doesn't generate truly random numbers". Gets me all hot under the collar.

Well, claiming that a die does not generate a random number gets me 'hot under the collar'.

 

[resistor]

Well, claiming that a die does not generate a random number gets me 'hot under the collar'.

It doesn't. Every die and throwing style has minute biases, though they're small enough to be practically unexploitable, just like the imperfections in algorithmic PRNGs. ;-)

 

[Henrix]

It doesn't. Every die and throwing style has minute biases, though they're small enough to be practically unexploitable, just like the imperfections in algorithmic PRNGs. ;-)

*Sigh* Again - it is random, but not perfectly distributed. Don't confuse one for the other.

A random number generation program, unless it takes to external generation of seeds, isn't random, but may have a very good distribution.

 

[resistor]

*Sigh* Again - it is random, but not perfectly distributed. Don't confuse one for the other.

To start, I don't accept you definition of random. What you're talking about is determinism vs. non-determinism.

From an information theoretic perspective, a string of bits is random if the string is shorter than the shortest possible Turing machine that can produce those bits. In short, a random bit string is one for which no compression is possible.

Any sufficiently long string with non-uniform distribution of the bits is non-random under this definition. Arithmetic coding is a fairly standard technique that exploits exactly this property to compress bit strings.

The obvious extension from bit strings to integer strings applies.

-----

Continuing with determinism vs. non-determinism, your claim still isn't really true. Rolling a die is the product of fairly straightforward mechanical process, which we could model in detail to predict the results. It only appears non-determinic because some parts of the process are 'hidden': we don't know the exact starting state of the die, or the exact shape of your hands when you throw it.

So, in a sense, it's no less determnistic than a PRNG: the non-determinism comes from some initial seed state, which is itself assumed to be non-deterministc. (Queue debate over deterministic vs. nondeterministic universe.)

In terms of the actual rolling process being practically predictable, I'd argue that it's not materially different from provably strong PRNGs. Reasonably robust Newtonian physics modellers are pretty easy to write, while the difficulty of integer factorization underlies a decent percentage of modern cryptography.

 

[Henrix]

To start, I don't accept you definition of random.

Good grief. You know you are using 'random' in a different sense than it is usually done in science and philosophy, right?

A random process cannot be predetermined. A die roll cannot be predetermined. A computer generated random number can be predetermined - if you start two machines with the same program and the same seed they'll arrive at the same result.

To each his own, you may use the word any way you like.
Me, I'm tired of butting heads with you.

And as for the discussion at hand - get the game science dice if you like, but you won't see any difference at the table.
Or use a dice roller program, if you prefer - you won't notice any difference there either.

 

[Pbartender]

You are right in that they only carry the gem and glow colors, and only the most "popular" of those. By the end of April, all colors will be available for your local stores to purchase from distributors or us directly.

Oh, I'll be looking forward to that... I've been planning on getting a few new sets of Game Science dice, but it's hard to find the opaques in stock and they're so much easier for me to read than the gems (though the gems are pretty).

 

[Nikosandros]

*Sigh* Again - it is random, but not perfectly distributed. Don't confuse one for the other.

A random number generation program, unless it takes to external generation of seeds, isn't random, but may have a very good distribution.

Well, if we want to get nit picky every roll is deterministic. The motion of the die follows laws that are fully deterministic. However, the sheer amount of variables involved makes prediction of the result impossible.