RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[thecasualoblivion]

Xechnao, you get a little wordy and your point isn't always clear, so bear with me if I'm wrong, but what you are describing sound a lot like what White Wolf's World of Darkness games provide. Now, while I would call those games newbie/casual friendly one wonders why they haven't taken over the casual RPG world? I would argue that they don't offer the viceral oomph that D&D's level of action/violence provides. I would also argue that the level of conflict and violence to achieve that level of viceral engagement requires more mechanics than what you describe.

 

[Faraer]

What's 'real' in an RPG is what's in the shared imagined experience of the players and the memories that come from that. The rules have always been an adjunct to help the GM come up with judgements quickly and consistently. Elevating them from an adjunct to the game's defining focus would only appeal to a very narrow slice of potential players.

 

[xechnao]

I think you are putting "inspiration" on a pedestal here, and particularly putting too much on fluff.

By inspiration I mean interesting storytelling. Storytelling not as of narrative fluff but rather as a sensational message which excites the consumer. It could be a cover about a hero fighting a huge dragon or the dwarf and his bear enduring voyage in the wow video commercial. Or the explosive rage of the orc and the pillaged land in the same commercial.

Mechanics say more than fluff, because actions speak louder than words.

Its one thing to say or imagine something, and its another to actually do it. In game mechanics terms, to take an action and see it have an effect on the game world. Mechanics provide that.

Mechanics provide this message to the hardcore gamer and fan. A newbie does not consider all these mechanics necessary for the exciting action you are talking about and this is why he is avoiding the game. OTOH if he perceives the right dose of mechanics or effort to achieve the actions and the effects you are talking about he would want to bother himself with the game.

To add to this discussion, one thing casual play absolutely must have is the ability to accomodate a bad DM. This is important for spontaneous game generation, where a group of kids gets together, buys a few books, and starts playing without any outside input. Or, when a fresh faced player walks into a semi-public event like RPGA. A game that can produce acceptable results with a mediocre or inexperienced DM is a better fit for serving casual players.

Absolutely agreed. Furthermore a game could even be designed in such a way to support gaming without a DM.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I feel the need to point out that MMORPGs evolved from the desire to play a tabletop game online. Those ancient (Sorry!) MUDs came from D&D players who loved their computers, and wanted to put both together. Ultima Online, one of the premere and most famous MMORPGs that was made - and still continues, shockingly enough - was created by Garriott in an attempt to make the feel of tabletop gaming more idespread and universal amongst non-D&D gamers.

Video games come from D&D. Just about every RPG, be it from the US, Europe, or Japan, has D&D somewhere in its roots - and most non-RPGs do as well. From D&D came the dungeon crawl, which begat Wizardry, which begat Dragon Quest, which begat every jRPG in existance. From D&D came Ultima, which begat ID Software, which begat Doom, which begat the entire FPS genre. From D&D came the MUD, which begat Everquest, which begat - you guessed it - World of Warcraft.

In fact, Wizardry and Ultima all but created the entire RPG genre, from all over the world - and Ultima went on to do even more to inspire other developers to create games. All because Garriott went to a computer camp and played D&D.

As technology increases, I don't think tabletop gaming will die - it will just change. I already mentioned AR emerging and how that could change things, but look at what we have know that didn't previously exist thanks to the internet. Online games done in chat rooms, play by posts in forums - this stuff seems ordinary and mundane, but they're things that aren't even 20 years old yet.

 

[xechnao]

Xechnao, you get a little wordy and your point isn't always clear, so bear with me if I'm wrong, but what you are describing sound a lot like what White Wolf's World of Darkness games provide. Now, while I would call those games newbie/casual friendly one wonders why they haven't taken over the casual RPG world? I would argue that they don't offer the viceral oomph that D&D's level of action/violence provides. I would also argue that the level of conflict and violence to achieve that level of viceral engagement requires more mechanics than what you describe.

These games cover a tiny niche of the horror superhero or superantihero: playing as vampires, werewolves etch. Furthermore I would consider their mechanics needlessly complicated too in respect to what they provide, that is what they spontaneously allow you to do in terms of effects and situations such as action you are talking about.
Any level of conflict and visceral engagement requires the right set of rules and a design made to deliver them, not more mechanics. An optimized design will deliver these rules with no baggage. A derived design and not a specialized one for what you want to do -as happens to be the case with D&D- will have additional unnecessary baggage.

 

[Dausuul]

I feel the need to point out that MMORPGs evolved from the desire to play a tabletop game online. Those ancient (Sorry!) MUDs came from D&D players who loved their computers, and wanted to put both together. Ultima Online, one of the premere and most famous MMORPGs that was made - and still continues, shockingly enough - was created by Garriott in an attempt to make the feel of tabletop gaming more idespread and universal amongst non-D&D gamers.

Video games come from D&D. Just about every RPG, be it from the US, Europe, or Japan, has D&D somewhere in its roots - and most non-RPGs do as well. From D&D came the dungeon crawl, which begat Wizardry, which begat Dragon Quest, which begat every jRPG in existance. From D&D came Ultima, which begat ID Software, which begat Doom, which begat the entire FPS genre. From D&D came the MUD, which begat Everquest, which begat - you guessed it - World of Warcraft.

Nobody is contesting this, although I'll point out that there were a few more steps involved (you're forgetting the era of the single-player, non-networked CRPG, which lasted for quite a long time). Nor is there a clear, single line of descent; genetic material is constantly being swapped back and forth among tabletop games and computer games.

But WoW has evolved tremendously along the way. It is not a tabletop RPG crudely ported to the computer. It is a creature of the computer now, adapted to thrive in that environment - and in the process it has managed to reach far more players than D&D ever has.

The modern MMO and the modern tabletop game share common ancestors, but they are very different things.

 

[wedgeski]

Keep in mind that something like 95% of players will never see end game content.

Interestingly, that trend has been almost completely reversed in the latest WoW expansion, with the vast majority of gamers having set foot in the first couple of end-game raids (for those not familiar, end-game refers to content that you run after you've reached maximum level). Blizzard definitely took a step back and said, "this is not good enough", and made a major philosophocal shift in their approach to the game.

 

[wedgeski]

From D&D came Ultima, which begat ID Software

The pedant in me demands to know how you draw this link, but it doesn't invalidate your otherwise excellent post.

 

[Jhaelen]

The pedant in me demands to know how you draw this link, but it doesn't invalidate your otherwise excellent post.

Didn't Ultima Underworld inspire them to write their first 3d engine for pcs?

 

[wedgeski]

Didn't Ultima Underworld inspire them to write their first 3d engine for pcs?

The pedant is satisfied! That's true, at least according to Wikipedia. I did not know that.