RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[Corinth]

For the common gamer, who isn't a GM, WOW is better than D&D for what he wants. The minority that are GMs, for all intents and purposes, are little more than a talent pool for the e-RPG companies to recruit from. TRPGs, as they are now, are nothing more than a farm league for the real players in the RPG business.

 

[Jhaelen]

For the common gamer, who isn't a GM, WOW is better than D&D for what he wants. The minority that are GMs, for all intents and purposes, are little more than a talent pool for the e-RPG companies to recruit from. TRPGs, as they are now, are nothing more than a farm league for the real players in the RPG business.

???
I'm not even sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

For most gamers I know, CRPGs are nothing but a fix for those who don't happen to be able to play TRPG with a group.
Several of my current players have been won over from CRPGs to the real thing. Once I managed to get to play regularly in a TRPG I actually stopped playing computer games altogether. If we don't manage to get together for TRPG we'll meet to play a board game. It's more fun than any CRPG could ever be.

So it definitely goes both ways.

 

[Mournblade94]

For the common gamer, who isn't a GM, WOW is better than D&D for what he wants. The minority that are GMs, for all intents and purposes, are little more than a talent pool for the e-RPG companies to recruit from. TRPGs, as they are now, are nothing more than a farm league for the real players in the RPG business.

Clearly someone has to do their research...

My wife who knew nothing about 1st edition D&D, picked up Unearthed Arcana (1st edition) and remarked "They use all of the WOW abilities in this spell list...Cool". Mostly right, jsut reverse the order.

WOW is simply table top brought to the computer screen, albeit in a way that cannot capture what real RPG's are about.

I'll be the first one to say it is obvious how much 4e mechanics take after video games, yet there is still way more you can accomplish as a character in a table top 4e game than in the WOW game.

Oh you can surely beat the lich king in WOW... but funny enough he keeps coming back in the same place... over and over and over again. SO other people can kill him as well.

In a Tabletop RPG, when you rescue the princess, the princess is truly rescued and the monarch thanks you and you have his eternal gratitiude.

In an MMORPG when you rescue the princess, she thanks you... the monarch thanks you... and she winds up back in the pit from where she was originally rescued. So that she can be rescued again.

 

[Dausuul]

Clearly someone has to do their research...

My wife who knew nothing about 1st edition D&D, picked up Unearthed Arcana (1st edition) and remarked "They use all of the WOW abilities in this spell list...Cool". Mostly right, jsut reverse the order.

WOW is simply table top brought to the computer screen, albeit in a way that cannot capture what real RPG's are about.

WoW undeniably evolved from tabletop gaming, as did most MMOs; but to claim that WoW is "simply" tabletop brought to the computer screen is absurd. The modern MMO is very much its own beast, designed for its own medium.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with what Corinth was saying. His statement was that WoW was, for the "common gamer," a better choice than tabletop for what that gamer wants. I would replace "common" with "casual," but otherwise I agree: WoW is easier to learn, more fast-paced, has prettier visuals, and requires much less in the way of real-world logistics (finding people to play with face-to-face, finding someone willing to put in the time to run the game, scheduling a time to play every week). It's also more consistent. Tabletop play is a joy with a good DM, but with a bad DM it's abysmal, whereas the MMO always delivers.

WoW was built to draw in casual gamers, and it does that brilliantly. D&D was built by and for people already steeped in wargaming culture, and for all the edition changes, it is still heavily loaded with the legacy of that culture. For those of us who love it, it provides an experience no MMO can match, but there's a substantial investment both up front and ongoing.

 

[Corinth]

Clearly someone has to do their research...

I'm on the scene, and I have been for years. I do both, I talk to people that do both, and I do so on a wide scale. It's the naysayers that are in the dark.

My wife who knew nothing about 1st edition D&D, picked up Unearthed Arcana (1st edition) and remarked "They use all of the WOW abilities in this spell list...Cool". Mostly right, jsut reverse the order.

WOW is simply table top brought to the computer screen, albeit in a way that cannot capture what real RPG's are about.

And yet WOW is far more popular and enjoys far great commercial success than D&D ever has, or ever will. The reason is that, quite frankly, players in general prefer what WOW offers over the tabletop counterpart. They don't care nearly so much about fictional continuity as they do about engaging gameplay, convenience of play, and the expansive user network that they can tap into at will. When WOW guilds start holding their own conventions (and they do; mine's on its second annual convention this year), that's when you have something that the common gamer actually wants. WOW (and all other CRPGs & MMORPGs) may not provide what TRPGs are about, but their superior commercial success and popular acceptance means that what TRPGs are about is not what the common gamer wants.

I'll be the first one to say it is obvious how much 4e mechanics take after video games, yet there is still way more you can accomplish as a character in a table top 4e game than in the WOW game.

It doesn't matter if I can't play when I want, how I want, because I have to herd a bunch of cats into the same space at the same time. Time not spent playing is lost value; anything utterly dependent upon Network Externalities derives most of its value from not only the size of the user network, but also by how frequently you can utilize that network. I can play WOW damn near at any time, and I will be able to get a group for any group content I wish to enjoy; I can't do that for any TRPG. If I want to play the game, and the common gamer does, the option that provides me superior convenience of access wins.

Oh you can surely beat the lich king in WOW... but funny enough he keeps coming back in the same place... over and over and over again. SO other people can kill him as well.

In a Tabletop RPG, when you rescue the princess, the princess is truly rescued and the monarch thanks you and you have his eternal gratitiude.

In an MMORPG when you rescue the princess, she thanks you... the monarch thanks you... and she winds up back in the pit from where she was originally rescued. So that she can be rescued again.

That just means, to the common gamer, that you can play through that RPG scenario again. It's a feature, not a bug, and actually adds value for him; if were really that bad, no one would do it- and yet it's still the thing that put (and helps to keep) WOW on the top of the MMO heap.

The TRPG market is better off letting the current common gamer go entirely, and instead targeting a new audience that actually clamors for TRPGs in the same way that common gamers clamor for MMOs, but that requires that the businessmen in the TRPG business reassess what it is that they product truly offers vs. what it takes to actually use it (and to stop arguing in favor of the competition).

 

[Badwe]

I can't help but wonder if we are thinking of the same WoW when we use terms like "casual" to describe the target base. Especially at high level. I don't honestly think Wow vs. D&D can really be measured on a casual vs. hardcore spectrum.

I think the term I would use is "accessible". Today, in 2009, more poeple own computers than the rulebooks to D&D. Additionally, when the mood strikes someone to play, they can install WoW and begin their journey, whereas to play D&D they will have to find a group. also, many D&D campaigns go on for a long time and come to require a consistent commitment from all involved for that one day a week. Of course, as someone who gives up 4 hours of his evening 3 nights a week and has done so somewhat consistently for about 3 years now I'd say the same is possible in WoW.

Ironically, one of the things I like about wow is how it can at times be sort of impassionate towards the given player. Sure there are quests but you're not really obliged to complete them, and as long as you have the level (and maybe if you don't) you can walk into any zone and see what it has to offer. Could you imagine a DM laying out a map of a world and sort of bracketing off what level monsters would be found where? Meanwhile, i often see an eagerness to have D&D take on the same feel, a "sandbox" we call it. I would say even with it's eternally spawning princess, WoW makes a pretty good sandbox.

 

[maddman75]

I can't help but wonder if we are thinking of the same WoW when we use terms like "casual" to describe the target base. Especially at high level. I don't honestly think Wow vs. D&D can really be measured on a casual vs. hardcore spectrum.

Keep in mind that something like 95% of players will never see end game content.

 

[Dausuul]

I can't help but wonder if we are thinking of the same WoW when we use terms like "casual" to describe the target base. Especially at high level. I don't honestly think Wow vs. D&D can really be measured on a casual vs. hardcore spectrum.

Any popular game is going to have hardcore enthusiasts. The U.S. has a televised national Rock-Paper-Scissors Championship, for Pete's sake.

However, WoW makes a point of being friendly to the casual gamer. D&D tries, but due to a combination of inherent limitations in the tabletop genre and the aforementioned wargaming legacy, I don't think it succeeds all that well - certainly nowhere near as well as WoW.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Any popular game is going to have hardcore enthusiasts. The U.S. has a televised national Rock-Paper-Scissors Championship, for Pete's sake.

However, WoW makes a point of being friendly to the casual gamer. D&D tries, but due to a combination of inherent limitations in the tabletop genre and the aforementioned wargaming legacy, I don't think it succeeds all that well - certainly nowhere near as well as WoW.

Still it succeeds better than any other RPG, and I would add that 4E is more friendly than 3E was.

 

[xechnao]

However, WoW makes a point of being friendly to the casual gamer. D&D tries, but due to a combination of inherent limitations in the tabletop genre and the aforementioned wargaming legacy, I don't think it succeeds all that well - certainly nowhere near as well as WoW.

And I repeat. They should change this. They could make a tabletop equally interesting regarding archetypes and tactical or strategic gameplay but with a rules interface that could avoid the need of half the rules referencing that the game has now. The set up of the gameplay should have the less baggage possible. Make this the business plan priority of the new edition. Selling add-ons such as miniatures should not be the primary goal cause this way the future of the game wont be so long. Do not care about legacy and sacred cows that come in the way. If it would be simpler with a different set or organization of character attributes for example then change them. Think of gameplay and tabletop first, then of dungeons&dragons and whatever side product revenue you want to be making out of the market.