RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[xechnao]

Rather I hope things stabilise to a certain, functional level.

Agreed. And this is what I hope Wotc will want to do with D&D. As I said it would be a shame that they chose to suck it out dry instead.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I don't think anything 'needs to be done' or what have you. The numbers have fluctuated since the beginning, and will continue to do so. Game stores will still be around, for the foreseeable future, I suspect. Yes, that's conjecture, but no more so than any of the regularly scheduled repeats of doomsaying and all that stuff, from (often) the same rather small number of interweb voices, give or take a few.

Ryan Dancey, IIRC, is one such voice, foretelling imminent death and destruction (er, of industry/hobby, that is) at slightly irregular intervals for some time now (and we'd be talking years here). Please, correct me if I'm wrong there. And well, if I'm not, perhaps there's a millennium cult still hiring?

 

[wedgeski]

My apologies. I didn't want to insinuate that you (or Ryan) had never read a book or didn't know about the difference between the respective attractions of the and outer eye (to use your terms).

Forget about it.

What I said was: as long as people feel the attraction of the former, and they will as long as they read books, then I don't think anyone should feel the risk of these things being supplanted by entirely different things.

I think personally, that if technology ever reaches the oft-aggrandised 'holodeck' level of immersion, then books may well become a quaint, niche hobby much akin to our own beloved roleplaying.

Picture an imaging system so powerful that it can fool your senses, and a computer so sophisticated that it can take the text of a novel, apply contextual historical (or hypothetical) detail to the environment in real time, and allow you to live the story of the protagonist, or simply observe him move through the plot, however you wish. Writers will likely stop relying on mere text to translate their imagination, and writing a novel will become akin to building a movie... with the computer doing all of the jobs that the writer does not feel equipped to do (and movies themselves will simply be re-imaginings of the story by people other than the author). Prose will likely become obsolete, or the domain of academics, because a book in as 'primitive' a form as mere words on a page (or PDA) simply will not sell any more.

That's the kind of future I foresee. To us, the possible loss of the written word is tragic, but to our children, it will simply be progress.

Here's the catch. I used to play quite a bit of Guildwars (another Fantasy-MMO). It was quite a thing to logon on a Friday evening and get in touch with the other members in one's guild. We would talk and form groups to go through missions, during which we'd communicate using head sets. Obviously 90% of what we'd say would be incidentally in-character and informed by in-game considerations ("you [meaning, your rogue] need to watch out - there's a monster behind you" etc.). True, everything thereof would only regard combat situations, but that has been my experience with most of 4E as well.

There are experiences to be had in MMO's far more immersive than it sounds like you've enjoyed. I've played WoW since launch, but since recently trying out a roleplaying server, I've had several real-time, in-character chats over VOIP, and one really fantastic planned roleplaying event between our little guild and a friend's. All this proves to me is that the potential for roleplaying is in no way defined by the platform, be it 3E, 4E or WoW.

And that would be why I focused on supplying one's own visuals. That is for me the only thing that MMOs won't ever (want to) accomplish.

I can't agree with this, ever. I think this is the natural destination of MMO's, and ultimately, any creative endeavour that relies on imagery/sensation to convey its meaning. But, we're (unfortunately) talking way in excess of any longevity I might enjoy.

 

[xechnao]

I can't agree with this, ever.

It is just technologically impossible. What you are saying about for the future it is never going to happen because theoretically the possibility does not exist. You cant replicate digitally real-life experiences. You cant digitally replicate an environment that can let you develop the feelings or sensations of the feedback of interaction with real people, face to face. Even if it were possible it would be so confusing to you that it would damage your real life.

 

[wedgeski]

It is just technologically impossible. What you are saying about for the future it is never going to happen because theoretically the possibility does not exist. You cant replicate digitally real-life experiences. You cant digitally replicate an environment that can let you develop the feelings or sensations of the feedback of interaction with real people, face to face. Even if it were possible it would be so confusing to you that it would damage your real life.

I don't think this can be said with any certainty, but since neither of us can travel in time (well, I can't, I don't know about you!), we will probably never know.

 

[maddman75]

There are experiences to be had in MMO's far more immersive than it sounds like you've enjoyed. I've played WoW since launch, but since recently trying out a roleplaying server, I've had several real-time, in-character chats over VOIP, and one really fantastic planned roleplaying event between our little guild and a friend's. All this proves to me is that the potential for roleplaying is in no way defined by the platform, be it 3E, 4E or WoW.

I've played a fair number of CRPGs, including MMOs, in my time. IME, the most phenomenal video games do not even come close to the most typical PnP session. And they're really a different kind of fun.

To me, an important part of gaming is that face-to-face interaction. DDI tabletop, PBP, video conferencing - really I'm not interested in any of it. I'd rather not game at all.

 

[xechnao]

I don't think this can be said with any certainty

It can be said with a theoretic certainty. If you have some acceptable theory that could show or model what you are talking about -on a purely abstract level (no need to any details)- I would be interested to discuss.

 

[Mournblade94]

Forget about it.


Picture an imaging system so powerful that it can fool your senses, and a computer so sophisticated that it can take the text of a novel, apply contextual historical (or hypothetical) detail to the environment in real time, and allow you to live the story of the protagonist, or simply observe him move through the plot, however you wish. Writers will likely stop relying on mere text to translate their imagination, and writing a novel will become akin to building a movie... with the computer doing all of the jobs that the writer does not feel equipped to do (and movies themselves will simply be re-imaginings of the story by people other than the author). Prose will likely become obsolete, or the domain of academics, because a book in as 'primitive' a form as mere words on a page (or PDA) simply will not sell any more.

There are plenty of video games I have played years ago that exist on the fringe of my memory. There are actually times I recall some scenes, and have to take several moments to remember if the memory was from a real situation or a video game.

That's the kind of future I foresee. To us, the possible loss of the written word is tragic, but to our children, it will simply be progress.

And it will lead to all kind of societal problems. Are american schools graduating low quality students because the kids are dumber or because they don't focus their minds because information is given quickly and visually? I don't think there is any evidence to support that kids are not as able as previous generations. It is letting kids through school without stressing the importance of the written word that is the detriment.

I don't think the visual alone leads to the same problem solving ability.

There are experiences to be had in MMO's far more immersive than it sounds like you've enjoyed. I've played WoW since launch, but since recently trying out a roleplaying server, I've had several real-time, in-character chats over VOIP, and one really fantastic planned roleplaying event between our little guild and a friend's. All this proves to me is that the potential for roleplaying is in no way defined by the platform, be it 3E, 4E or WoW.

I think more effort has to be made in an MMO. I have a great roleplaying group with table top and larp. When they play MMO's their "roleplaying" involves words like DPS. My wife and friends play MMO's all the time. I gave it up because WOW is an adventure game not a roleplaying game (I recognize you can still get into character, but just hearing the gamist talk over vent completely breaks any immersion for me). Even on RP servers I have yet to see any true roleplaying. I beleive you have had those experiences, but I think your group had to REALLY break the mold.

I can't agree with this, ever. I think this is the natural destination of MMO's, and ultimately, any creative endeavour that relies on imagery/sensation to convey its meaning. But, we're (unfortunately) talking way in excess of any longevity I might enjoy.

I am certainly not opposed to this ever happening

 

[Mistwell]

So let me see if I follow the general theme of this thread, and the one it was spun off of.

Statement by Industry Expert: D&D is selling relatively well, the RPG industry is relatively healthy, and game stores are doing relatively fine.

Posters: The end is nigh! D&D is selling poorly, the RPG industry is dying, and game stores are ceasing their existence shortly.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

So let me see if I follow the general theme of this thread, and the one it was spun off of.

Statement by Industry Expert: D&D is selling relatively well, the RPG industry is relatively healthy, and game stores are doing relatively fine.

Posters: The end is nigh! D&D is selling poorly, the RPG industry is dying, and game stores are ceasing their existence shortly.

Pretty much, with the addition that said posters find that the new edition of D&D isn't catering to their desires, and their opinions might be coming from a self-centered point of view.