Rule Q: Akunal Background with Book Imp
- Thread starter N0Man
- Start date
The problem with the interpretation is that the Imp's bonus in the game that explicitly stacks with other bonuses to become worse than if it didn't stack with another bonus.
The general rule is that when non-stacking bonuses apply, then the better one applies. In this case the bonuses explicitly stack. Surely having 2 bonuses that are designed to stack can't be worse than having 2 bonuses that don't stack.
The thing is, RAW isn't really written. It's an interpretation and guess. There is no rule written that says a background bonus is applied before a level 1 feat bonus is. Types of bonuses and values of bonuses matter, order never has anywhere else. Saying that logically a background comes before a feat is inferring rules that are grounded in fluff, not mechanics.
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JoeNotCharles
First Post
I would interpret this as 7, RAW. (Backgrounds and Familiars don't seem to be in the Compendium, and I'm not on Windows so I can't check the CB, so I'm assuming the wording in the OP is what's in the books.)
If you have fire resistance from multiple sources, you keep the highest resistance; they don't stack. (Hmm, I wanted to quote chapter and verse on this, but I can find where it's spelled out explicitly. Do I have that right?)
So Akunal gives you two options: you gain resist fire 2, or your existing resist fire increases by 2. It doesn't specify when each option takes effect (although obviously the second requires an existing resist fire.) For instance, if it said, "if you already have resist fire, it increases by 2 instead", then it would be spelled out exactly when you must take the increase. But as written, I think it could reasonably read as player's choice: you can choose to gain 2 fire resistance, or you can choose to increase your existing fire resistance by 2. (If you have existing fire resistance, in most cases it would be stupid to take option 1. However, you might interpret it to say that you must make the same choice for ALL resistances, in which case both options could be valuable: if you already have fire resist > 2 but not cold or thunder resist, you could choose to take resist 2 cold and thunder, but no additional fire resist, or you could choose to increase your fire resist but forego the cold and thunder resist.)
Book Imp does NOT use the word "or". So I would say that if you already have resist fire 2, both clauses come into effect: you gain resist fire 5, and then since you already had a resistance you add 2 to get 7. (This can be considered a bonus the imp gives to characters who already have some fire affiliation.) If you already had resist fire 10, you would gain resist fire 5 (which is useless since you already have 10) and then add 2 to get 12.
So, the player gets to choose between:
Akunal grants resist 2: total resist fire is 7 from Book Imp.
Akunal raises existing resistance: total resist fire is 5 from Book Imp (since Akunal does not grant basic fire resistance) +2 from Akunal (since the character has existing fire resistance from Book Imp) for total 7.
If you have fire resistance from multiple sources, you keep the highest resistance; they don't stack. (Hmm, I wanted to quote chapter and verse on this, but I can find where it's spelled out explicitly. Do I have that right?)
So Akunal gives you two options: you gain resist fire 2, or your existing resist fire increases by 2. It doesn't specify when each option takes effect (although obviously the second requires an existing resist fire.) For instance, if it said, "if you already have resist fire, it increases by 2 instead", then it would be spelled out exactly when you must take the increase. But as written, I think it could reasonably read as player's choice: you can choose to gain 2 fire resistance, or you can choose to increase your existing fire resistance by 2. (If you have existing fire resistance, in most cases it would be stupid to take option 1. However, you might interpret it to say that you must make the same choice for ALL resistances, in which case both options could be valuable: if you already have fire resist > 2 but not cold or thunder resist, you could choose to take resist 2 cold and thunder, but no additional fire resist, or you could choose to increase your fire resist but forego the cold and thunder resist.)
Book Imp does NOT use the word "or". So I would say that if you already have resist fire 2, both clauses come into effect: you gain resist fire 5, and then since you already had a resistance you add 2 to get 7. (This can be considered a bonus the imp gives to characters who already have some fire affiliation.) If you already had resist fire 10, you would gain resist fire 5 (which is useless since you already have 10) and then add 2 to get 12.
So, the player gets to choose between:
Akunal grants resist 2: total resist fire is 7 from Book Imp.
Akunal raises existing resistance: total resist fire is 5 from Book Imp (since Akunal does not grant basic fire resistance) +2 from Akunal (since the character has existing fire resistance from Book Imp) for total 7.
keterys
First Post
1) Character is created, picks a background that gives Resist Fire 2
2) At Level 2 Picks up Book Imp - Book Imp says your fire resist increases by 2 (which would be 4, in theory) - many DMs would allow 5, obviously enough...
Your resist from book imp varies in and out as to whether you have it, based on whether your familiar is around, and is acquired after you take the background. It's ludicrous to assume that it's an existing fire resistance for Akanul, by RAW.
I mean, for a home campaign I think resist 7 is probably pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things (at least compared to resist 5 already), but that doesn't make it RAW, and that doesn't make it legal for LFR in particular.
2) At Level 2 Picks up Book Imp - Book Imp says your fire resist increases by 2 (which would be 4, in theory) - many DMs would allow 5, obviously enough...
Your resist from book imp varies in and out as to whether you have it, based on whether your familiar is around, and is acquired after you take the background. It's ludicrous to assume that it's an existing fire resistance for Akanul, by RAW.
I mean, for a home campaign I think resist 7 is probably pretty harmless in the grand scheme of things (at least compared to resist 5 already), but that doesn't make it RAW, and that doesn't make it legal for LFR in particular.
keterys
First Post
Correct, which is a problem with the imp's benefits. Totally agree. That doesn't change the rule.
Of course it can. It's poor design, but that doesn't change anything. Again, I imagine that most people could just put down resist 5 from the book imp and I'm not actually arguing with that. I am saying that there's no part of
'Choose either resist 5 or (2+2=4)' that turns into 7.'
There doesn't have to be, anymore than there has to be a rule about a background bonus applying before you put on a suit of +2 black iron scale in the morning at 8th level or the wizard casts Resistance to fire on a character at 10th level.
It doesn't come from a feat at all. You don't have resist 5 fire from the feat. You have resist 5 fire when your imp is out. You have no existing fire resistance from the book imp feat no matter what order you take your benefits.
Jabba Von Hutt
First Post
Using the CB and following the built in sequence (not manually jumping back and forth) with the next button, backgrounds appear first so it's 2+2. And RAW would support that in my opinion.
However, looking at it from this point view gives me a different opinion in terms of intent. Let's say 2 wizards each with his own book imp were to meet on the street and one was from Akanul. Now without thinking or using of the actual numbers, who would you think would have the better fire resist? If the resists don't stack then at worst it's a push if they do then the Akanul wizard should come out on top. Again this is my opinion on the intent.
Cheers
However, looking at it from this point view gives me a different opinion in terms of intent. Let's say 2 wizards each with his own book imp were to meet on the street and one was from Akanul. Now without thinking or using of the actual numbers, who would you think would have the better fire resist? If the resists don't stack then at worst it's a push if they do then the Akanul wizard should come out on top. Again this is my opinion on the intent.
Cheers
Using the Character Builder's resolution as evidence to support a RAW argument is flawed. There are many things that are known not to calculate correctly there.
Someone else pointed out that the CB also calculates the Akanul background wrong for the Genasi, so that's not a reliable argument.
Building the same character, I also discovered that it also incorrectly calculates initiative for a Deva with Battle Intuition and a Wisdom Bonus.
keterys
First Post
Very glad to hear they're going to get it looked at, cause that's just wonky 
I would like to know how it's intended that Akanul interact with:
Black Iron armor or Cloak of Survival
Wizard's Fire Shield or Resistance spells
Genasi resistance gained from Versatile Resistance
Mostly a question of their theory of what 'existing' means for Akanul.
I would like to know how it's intended that Akanul interact with:
Black Iron armor or Cloak of Survival
Wizard's Fire Shield or Resistance spells
Genasi resistance gained from Versatile Resistance
Mostly a question of their theory of what 'existing' means for Akanul.
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