Rules Aren't Important

[RivetGeekWil]

Recipes aren't important unless you feel they are. Or you want your food to not taste like ass.

While I'm very much on the side of not wanting rules that simulate reality, the foundation of the game's mechanics makes a huge difference. There is a fundamental shift in play style and overall feel between player-facing rules against a static threshold (Blades in the Dark), 4dF (Fate), and Cortex Prime's roll and keep 2 opposed dice pools. I run BitD, Fate, and Cortex Prime under similar fiction-first principles but the rules provide a lot of nuance.

 

[overgeeked]

Recipes aren't important unless you feel they are. Or you want your food to not taste like ass.

That implies that all food not made to a recipe tastes like ass. That’s obviously false. Anyone who’s cooked regularly can whip up a tasty meal without a recipe in hand.

 

[John R Davis]

That implies that all food not made to a recipe tastes like ass. That’s obviously false. Anyone who’s cooked regularly can whip up a tasty meal without a recipe in hand.

Well yeah. Because they remember Meal X needs 2 portions of A and 3 portions of B. Which is essentially a recipe or rules in effect.

Some kind of guideline is needed for all RPGs. Whether it's Witch:The road to Lindisfarne which has no 'mechanics', or D&D 5th which has few mechanics.

I like both.

 

[Larnievc]

Yeah but we have already established @overgeeked didn't mean "no rules."

Ah, okay.

 

[Retros_x]

TL;DR: games have rules, stories do not.

So what are the rules when my children play "dinosaur family" in the garden?

 

[Retros_x]

Well yeah. Because they remember Meal X needs 2 portions of A and 3 portions of B. Which is essentially a recipe or rules in effect.

Knowlede =/= rules. Someone who follows a recipe could come to the same result, but the improvising cook having basic cooking knowledge and being creative with that is not following a rule. Rules/recipes/algorithms are pre-defined instructions, they are static. They ease the process of decision making or enforce a specific decision, but they are not needed for decision making.

 

[John R Davis]

Knowlede =/= rules. Someone who follows a recipe could come to the same result, but the improvising cook having basic cooking knowledge and being creative with that is not following a rule. Rules/recipes/algorithms are pre-defined instructions, they are static. They ease the process of decision making or enforce a specific decision, but they are not needed for decision making.

Utterly disagree. A game needs rules /guidelines /constraints or one of many other terms;
Successful cooking is the same.

 

[Retros_x]

Utterly disagree. A game needs rules /guidelines /constraints or one of many other terms;
Successful cooking is the same.

Successful cooking definitely doesnt need rules, it needs knowledge about how ingredients react in combination with heat and other ingredients. New dishes are made from experimentation, if the dish is good, we define the steps how we did get there as a recipe so other less knowing/talented can get to the same result more easily.

Playing games doesnt need rules. Just watch some children on the playground. They are playing dinosaurs. Suddenly they are now a family. Now they are building a sand castle in which the dinosaurs live. Than they flood the castle. There are no rules. Often rules emerge, because specific behaviours in games seem to be most fun/engaging. Also I would agree rules are needed for competitions. So if to a game a competitive factor gets added, then rules will emerge really quick. But they emerge from the game, not the different way around.
I would argue games only need some sort of interaction and a safe space, meaning no real life consequence. When I kill you in game, I do not kill you in real life, to have a drastic example.

edit: I just realized something. I am not an english native speaker. In Germany, where I come from, play and game are the same word. I just realized in English "game" has a slightly different meaning than "play", it is - according to wikipedia "a structured form of play". My argumentation was based on my German experience. With the english definition its pretty much defined that rules are needed. My bad.

 

[John R Davis]

All right.
Children in a playground have lots social rules for a ' successful' game.
RPGs I meant. Even as I said a game with no mechanics needs " something".

Otherwise is telling a story ( even with multi participants), or improv.

Which themselves, rather like cooking have rules, etc as I have stated.

They don't need to be written down. They may just be a social contract.

Anyway it's all down to people's definitions, which vary massively on the internet.

 

[Retros_x]

All right.
Children in a playground have lots social rules for a ' successful' game.
RPGs I meant. Even as I said a game with no mechanics needs " something".

Otherwise is telling a story ( even with multi participants), or improv.

Which themselves, rather like cooking have rules, etc as I have stated.

They don't need to be written down. They may just be a social contract.

Anyway it's all down to people's definitions, which vary massively on the internet.

I edited my last reply, as a non-english speaker I forgot about the different meanings of "play" and "game".
Improv is definitely playing (not a game though). Telling a story is different than playing without rules. One has interactions, the other not. Playing is not defined by rules, I will die on that hill. Its defined by having interactions and by beeing free of real life consequence. A literal playground. Games are structured, so with the English definition, I agree. In German playing and game are the same word, so my bad, I argumented on the behalf of my German background.
edit: The point of the whole argumentation anyway is not to get rid of all rules in games. It is to became aware that rules emerged to help us with the game, not to dictate. So we can change them, however it fits for our game, especially if we are the literal game master. Thats why rules discussion are sometimes a bit pointless. There is no need to prove to others that they are "playing wrong".