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Rules for Horse footing?
- Thread starter dcollins
- Start date
except in the SRD under hills they have some examples of moving down a slope quickly, running/charging and a person makes a balance check, whereas if your mounted you make a ride check. You could also make the mount make a balance check. That way, you make a ride to stay on as it going barrelling down the slope, and the mount makes a balance to make sure it doesn't tumble. Works for me!
I like the idea of the horses squishin' through tough terrain. I've been on horses moving through tough undergrowth, but I don't know if that would've been really any more easier on foot. I will say though it is really scary to be on a horse that is walking down a steep rugged slope. Especially after a friend mentions horse legs snapping and paints an awfully good mental picture.
Tellerve
I like the idea of the horses squishin' through tough terrain. I've been on horses moving through tough undergrowth, but I don't know if that would've been really any more easier on foot. I will say though it is really scary to be on a horse that is walking down a steep rugged slope. Especially after a friend mentions horse legs snapping and paints an awfully good mental picture.
Tellerve
dcollins
Explorer
Here's a related question. There seem to be two somewhat different definitions of "slope", one for the Climb skill, and another under the Hills & Mountain Terrain section.
For Climb Skill: "A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more." A slope in this definition requires a Climb check, and moves at one-quarter speed.
For Hills Terrain: "Gradual slope" doesn't effect movement, "Steep slope" reduces uphill movement to one-half (no Climb check needed in any case).
So if we put these together, what do you think the angle is for "Gradual slope" & "Steep slope"? Maybe:
- "Gradual slope": 0-20 degrees, normal move.
- "Steep slope": 20-40 degrees, half move up.
- "Extreme slope": 40-60 degrees, quarter move with Climb check DC 0.
- "Wall/Cliff": over 60 degrees, quarter move with Climb check DC 15+.
Does that seem right?
For Climb Skill: "A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more." A slope in this definition requires a Climb check, and moves at one-quarter speed.
For Hills Terrain: "Gradual slope" doesn't effect movement, "Steep slope" reduces uphill movement to one-half (no Climb check needed in any case).
So if we put these together, what do you think the angle is for "Gradual slope" & "Steep slope"? Maybe:
- "Gradual slope": 0-20 degrees, normal move.
- "Steep slope": 20-40 degrees, half move up.
- "Extreme slope": 40-60 degrees, quarter move with Climb check DC 0.
- "Wall/Cliff": over 60 degrees, quarter move with Climb check DC 15+.
Does that seem right?
My girlfriend actually used to make a living training horses (and training people to ride them). Here are her comments on this thread:
Horses + Terrain:
(She adds: Nowdays I'm an ancient historian who studies the use of cavalry in ancient campaign warfare.)
This depends on 4 factors -
1. The size/breed of the horse.
2. The weight of the rider.
3. The type of terrain.
4. Whether or not the horse has shoes.
Regarding 1: Large heavy horses will do worse all around. This not only includes both densly wooded areas and marshy footing, but on smooth not so rocky terrain. Lighter/non-draft horses will always be lighter footed and faster in any sort of terrain, simply because their natural coordination will be more reactionary. Ponies, mules, donkies, onagers -- they're all going to be strong, but not quick.
Regarding 2: If you figure armor even in it's lightest state is on average going to add 80 pounds to a rider, this is a problem no matter what sort of terrain you're on. Horses are already hindered with people on their back - they cant make natural choices about direction and timing. If any sort of equipment, saddle bags, or weapons are added to this mess, it's really going to slow the horse down. Rocky terrain is a no-no here. The horses hooves and legs will take a royal beating after a very short time. Endurance riders typically carry very little extra weight and are light people for this reason. Horses cannot naturally keep up high speeds for long periods of time (a Quarter horse is called a quarter horse for it's speed at a 1/4 mile).
Regarding 3: Woods or no woods is not the issue here, let me break it down for you: Swamps are pretty much out for horses. Ever see The Never Ending Story? Yeah. That. Horses in general are NOT big fans of water and have to be trained to deal with it. Even in the wild, they only swim when they have to. So if you've created mud -- you're REALLY creating problems for the horse. Forests are really no different for them as long as it's not dense forest. Bigger horses, in a way similar to elephants, can just kindof ram through the brush, but this takes a lot of energy and really causes their legs and lower bodies to take a beating. If the forest has solid ground, it hasnt rained recently, and there's not a lot of viny underbrush the horse will do just as well here as it would on a plain. (That is, without any sort of heavy weight bearing armor/equipment). Figure the horse will take some light damage in need of tending to from crashing through brush. Really - it's rare a horse makes it through the woods without a scratch on it, but it can make it through them, and can do it quickly with only light damage. As far as plains or rocky plains go, lighter horses will always have an advantage in speed, though not nessecarily in footing. (Smaller hooves = less balance = more likely to fall if they take a wrong step.) Rocky plains will always do a number to horses feet - particularly if they are not shod - that is, they have no shoes. Mountains are hard on horses no matter what. They will move faster than a human would unless the incline is above a 30-40 degree angle. Once it get's beyond that though, they have a SERIOUS problem. Their center of gravity doesn't exactly help in this situation and often times horses will refuse to go up an incline higher than that all together. Futhermore, keep in mind that horses are reactionary in a herd mentality -- if someone else's horse refuses or spooks, there's a good chance that your horse will as well. Finally, as far as indoor riding goes: banish all thoughts of Gandalf and Shadowfax charging up the stairs here. Horses do not do well on marble, or on asphalt. Anything that is rock solid a horse get's no traction on, and must be specifically trained to deal with. Even then it's really dangerous for the horse, and if the horse falls, it will undoubtedly be injured in such a way that will have it laid up for months if not need to be put down. (Think high level spell here.)
Regarding 4:
Shoes are a big point of contention. A lot of horse people say horses dont need shoes...but there's a reason the Roman's invented them. The more armor/weight you put on a horse, the more support it's feet need. The more injuries it can take going over different terrains. Horses dont carry people on their back in the wild....this is ALWAYS an unnatural state. If the horse doesnt have shoes, it's going to take a beating on it's feet. If a horse has to travel more than 100 miles, at decent speeds and doesnt get proper hoof care and rest, the horse will go seriously lame. If it's not rested, it will go lame. Also keep in mind - horses are not cheetahs with a mane and tail, a neat snuffy nose and hooves. Big horses are slow (think drafts), little horses are quick (think Arabians, Thoroughbreds). They are also hot, cold and warm blooded (no not like lizards). Hot blooded horses have drier hooves, do better in desert regions or dry open plains and are the fastest, but will be sluggesh in winter months. Cold blooded horses are your quintessential midieval horses, they do well in colder regions, but were built to pull and charge, not be quick. Their hooves will dry out very quickly in hotter regions and they will take more damage that way. Warm bloods are a combination of the two, they do best in warmish climates, but their hooves will take a beating at either very hot or very cold climates. To really understand how the horse works with it's feet you have to have an understanding of how it moves.
The point being here...that horses are a big can of worms to open up if you want to do it right. Otherwise, it's probably not worth your time. Horses are grazing animals in the wild, they run and deal with what they have to when they have to, but the rest of the time remain at rest. The minute you put them in a situation with people and armor and weight, everything changes - food intake, water intake, hoof wear, teeth care...et al. Less you're thinking about introducing equine colic to your next campaign...I recommend steering clear of all this.
Horses + Terrain:
(She adds: Nowdays I'm an ancient historian who studies the use of cavalry in ancient campaign warfare.)
This depends on 4 factors -
1. The size/breed of the horse.
2. The weight of the rider.
3. The type of terrain.
4. Whether or not the horse has shoes.
Regarding 1: Large heavy horses will do worse all around. This not only includes both densly wooded areas and marshy footing, but on smooth not so rocky terrain. Lighter/non-draft horses will always be lighter footed and faster in any sort of terrain, simply because their natural coordination will be more reactionary. Ponies, mules, donkies, onagers -- they're all going to be strong, but not quick.
Regarding 2: If you figure armor even in it's lightest state is on average going to add 80 pounds to a rider, this is a problem no matter what sort of terrain you're on. Horses are already hindered with people on their back - they cant make natural choices about direction and timing. If any sort of equipment, saddle bags, or weapons are added to this mess, it's really going to slow the horse down. Rocky terrain is a no-no here. The horses hooves and legs will take a royal beating after a very short time. Endurance riders typically carry very little extra weight and are light people for this reason. Horses cannot naturally keep up high speeds for long periods of time (a Quarter horse is called a quarter horse for it's speed at a 1/4 mile).
Regarding 3: Woods or no woods is not the issue here, let me break it down for you: Swamps are pretty much out for horses. Ever see The Never Ending Story? Yeah. That. Horses in general are NOT big fans of water and have to be trained to deal with it. Even in the wild, they only swim when they have to. So if you've created mud -- you're REALLY creating problems for the horse. Forests are really no different for them as long as it's not dense forest. Bigger horses, in a way similar to elephants, can just kindof ram through the brush, but this takes a lot of energy and really causes their legs and lower bodies to take a beating. If the forest has solid ground, it hasnt rained recently, and there's not a lot of viny underbrush the horse will do just as well here as it would on a plain. (That is, without any sort of heavy weight bearing armor/equipment). Figure the horse will take some light damage in need of tending to from crashing through brush. Really - it's rare a horse makes it through the woods without a scratch on it, but it can make it through them, and can do it quickly with only light damage. As far as plains or rocky plains go, lighter horses will always have an advantage in speed, though not nessecarily in footing. (Smaller hooves = less balance = more likely to fall if they take a wrong step.) Rocky plains will always do a number to horses feet - particularly if they are not shod - that is, they have no shoes. Mountains are hard on horses no matter what. They will move faster than a human would unless the incline is above a 30-40 degree angle. Once it get's beyond that though, they have a SERIOUS problem. Their center of gravity doesn't exactly help in this situation and often times horses will refuse to go up an incline higher than that all together. Futhermore, keep in mind that horses are reactionary in a herd mentality -- if someone else's horse refuses or spooks, there's a good chance that your horse will as well. Finally, as far as indoor riding goes: banish all thoughts of Gandalf and Shadowfax charging up the stairs here. Horses do not do well on marble, or on asphalt. Anything that is rock solid a horse get's no traction on, and must be specifically trained to deal with. Even then it's really dangerous for the horse, and if the horse falls, it will undoubtedly be injured in such a way that will have it laid up for months if not need to be put down. (Think high level spell here.)
Regarding 4:
Shoes are a big point of contention. A lot of horse people say horses dont need shoes...but there's a reason the Roman's invented them. The more armor/weight you put on a horse, the more support it's feet need. The more injuries it can take going over different terrains. Horses dont carry people on their back in the wild....this is ALWAYS an unnatural state. If the horse doesnt have shoes, it's going to take a beating on it's feet. If a horse has to travel more than 100 miles, at decent speeds and doesnt get proper hoof care and rest, the horse will go seriously lame. If it's not rested, it will go lame. Also keep in mind - horses are not cheetahs with a mane and tail, a neat snuffy nose and hooves. Big horses are slow (think drafts), little horses are quick (think Arabians, Thoroughbreds). They are also hot, cold and warm blooded (no not like lizards). Hot blooded horses have drier hooves, do better in desert regions or dry open plains and are the fastest, but will be sluggesh in winter months. Cold blooded horses are your quintessential midieval horses, they do well in colder regions, but were built to pull and charge, not be quick. Their hooves will dry out very quickly in hotter regions and they will take more damage that way. Warm bloods are a combination of the two, they do best in warmish climates, but their hooves will take a beating at either very hot or very cold climates. To really understand how the horse works with it's feet you have to have an understanding of how it moves.
The point being here...that horses are a big can of worms to open up if you want to do it right. Otherwise, it's probably not worth your time. Horses are grazing animals in the wild, they run and deal with what they have to when they have to, but the rest of the time remain at rest. The minute you put them in a situation with people and armor and weight, everything changes - food intake, water intake, hoof wear, teeth care...et al. Less you're thinking about introducing equine colic to your next campaign...I recommend steering clear of all this.
dcollins
Explorer
Deset Gled said:
Deset Glad, that's really interesting and I'm glad you posted it. I am kind of interested in these issues and how they should be properly modelled for standard D&D cavalry, in particular.
I see that light warhorses are specially-bred "quarter horses and Arabians" 15-16 hands tall, while heavy warhorses are "such as Clydesdales" 16-17 hands tall (from PHB & MM, per #1). My estimate for cavalry total load on a light warhorse is 200 lb. or 300 lb., on a heavy warhorse 400 lb. (per #2). I do assume that war horses are all shod (medieval European technology, per #4).
So, it's particularly interesting to hear how atrocious swamp terrain would be (guess 3.5 "squeezing" rules could be applied there), and also the critical slope incline of up to 40 degrees (which I think is the barrier in D&D between "steep slope" half move for all, and "extreme slope" requiring a Climb check which is impossible for horses).
dcollins
Explorer
Here are my thumbnail calculations:
- Light cavalry: Rider 175 lb., leather armor 15 lb., riding saddle 25 lb., shortbow & arrows 5 lb., longsword 4 lb = total 224 lb.
- Heavy cavalry: Rider 200 lb., half-plate armor 50 lb., large steel shield 15 lb., chainmail barding 80 lb., military saddle 30 lb., lance 10 lb., longsword 4 lb. = total 389 lb.
Possibly add more for saddlebags, water, other gear, etc.
- Light cavalry: Rider 175 lb., leather armor 15 lb., riding saddle 25 lb., shortbow & arrows 5 lb., longsword 4 lb = total 224 lb.
- Heavy cavalry: Rider 200 lb., half-plate armor 50 lb., large steel shield 15 lb., chainmail barding 80 lb., military saddle 30 lb., lance 10 lb., longsword 4 lb. = total 389 lb.
Possibly add more for saddlebags, water, other gear, etc.
Stalker0 said:
The problem is that there is a large discrepancy between the weight of armor in game terms vs. the weight of armor in real life. In D+D, armor is given a weight of 15-50 lbs. This number represents the approximate load that it feels like a character will bear in terms of weight and bulkiness, taking distribution into account. Historically, armor wieghed more like 50-100 lbs (its interesting to note that most weapons in D+D work the opposite way: the weights given are significantly higher than what the actual weapon would weigh). If you want to consider the load the horse will feel, you're going to have to make some large adjustments to D+D weights.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Deset Gled said:
Where do you get that 50-100lb figure? Everything I've read places D&D era armors in the 20-50lb range--much like D&D places them....
In any event, however, with D&D book weights, a decent sized man wearing fullplate and carrying a sword or lance is going to be a medium load for a light horse (str 14, med load 174-348lb) and, if he's got a fiar strength score, he's probably a medium load for a light warhorse or heavy horse as well (str 16: med load 228lb-459lb). A heavy warhorse (str 18: 300-600lb med load) can probably carry an armored man in fullplate at a light load, but if you put barding on him, he'll be at medium load as well.
Remember that medium load incurs a -3 penalty to ability and skill checks and a reduction in speed; heavy load is a -6 penalty to checks, max dex of +1 and reduces the run speed one category as well.
Of course, horses will be able to carry more if your mounted warriors are 110lb girls with an 18 strength and barbie figure, but with realistic weights for human PCs (what is a realistic weight for an elf or dwarf is a rather curious question
, you'll find that, a saddle, clothes, a weapon and armor, even light PCs will have trouble keeping an ordinary riding horse at a light load.Weight does make a difference.
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