Rules Heavy v. Rules Light experiment - is it feasible?

[Gentlegamer]

If you do it this way, it becomes a competition.

[Note I don't know if C&C has a mechanic for resolving a character jumping.]

PCs come to a 10' pit.

C&C Player: I jump the pit.

C&C DM: OK, you're on the other side.

C&C Player: I jump the pit.

C&C CK: Roll a Strength check (secretly decides the difficulty is +3 [easy] to the Target Number, which is 12 because the character has Strength as a Prime Attribute)

C&C Player: <rolls> 15

C&C CK: You just make it!

That is how it is covered in the C&C rules under the SEIGE Engine.

 

[WizarDru]

Is this feasible? Do you think it could be accomplished fairly?

No, I don't. If you're trying to prove/disprove Ryan Dancey's mentioned test, you need to know the actual parameters. Were the gamers in question total newbies who weren't even gamers? Were they veterans? Too many factors to consider, and you're already starting with a self-selected sample that invalidates much of the test, IMHO. Not to mention what Quasqueton mentions above. Too much of the data is prone to subjective measurement. If one group is the 'tap a 10' pole every five feet' variety, while the other is the 'boot to the door' variety, that's another problem.

It's a nice idea, but I don't think it'd work.

 

[Gentlegamer]

what was the system that had a possible death during character creation?

Traveller, I think.

 

[Quasqueton]

Heh, well, last I checked C&C wasn't a diceless system! The CK would just assign a TN and maybe assign it to dex. So, it would just work out to be an ability score check, basically.

Yeah, he could. But without a rule for the action, the DM is perfectly within his rights to just judge the action a success without dice rolling. [This is something many people have suggested as a good thing about rules light systems in the Ryan Dancey thread.]

And in a competition situation, the DM might be tempted to skip the unwritten parts in order to get ahead of the other team.

Quasqueton

 

[diaglo]

No, I don't. If you're trying to prove/disprove Ryan Dancey's mentioned test, you need to know the actual parameters. Were the gamers in question total newbies who weren't even gamers? Were they veterans? Too many factors to consider, and you're already starting with a self-selected sample that invalidates much of the test, IMHO. Not to mention what Quasqueton mentions above. Too much of the data is prone to subjective measurement. If one group is the 'tap a 10' pole every five feet' variety, while the other is the 'boot to the door' variety, that's another problem.

It's a nice idea, but I don't think it'd work.

right N is too small.

you'd need at least 20 groups of each system to validate your study

 

[Quasqueton]

C&C Player: I jump the pit.

C&C CK: Roll a Strength check (secretly decides the difficulty is +3 [easy] to the Target Number, which is 12 because the character has Strength as a Prime Attribute)

C&C Player: <rolls> 15

C&C CK: You just make it!

That is how it is covered in the C&C rules under the SEIGE Engine.

OK, so C&C has a mechanic for doing jump checks. But still, if the DM wanted to make it easy, so his team could get ahead, he can judge the difficulty as low as he wants. Where as the D&D DM has hard and fast numbers. This is a competition -- needs solid rules to judge.

And what happens if one PC fails the jump check. The C&C Player rolls really well, and the D&D Players rolls really bad. Suddenly the D&D team has to "waste" time helping the fallen Player, while the C&C team moves on to the next obstacle. And what if the difference in the success/failure was because the C&C DM ruled a really low difficulty?

[I have *got* to get work done today. I may not be replying anywhere anymore on this board today.]

Quasqueton

 

[der_kluge]

Traveller, I think.

I've heard of that (rolling a dead character).

I once rolled a naked cop in Cyberpunk.

I was like, "if he's naked, how do people know he's a cop?"

 

[Turanil]

you'd need at least 20 groups of each system to validate your study

And DMs must run the game blindfolded for good measure.

 

[der_kluge]

So, if this were a competition, we'd have problems. So, we'd have to do a double-blind study instead. So, to do this more accurately, we'd need newbies who didn't understand gaming at all (or just the basic concepts of it), and then sit them in a room with some pre-generated characters and go through the dungeon.

Without the DM/CK attempting to "beat" anyone else, it would be a more valid test. And yes, statistically, we'd need to do this with like 40 groups each to be scientifically accurate, and even then there'd be a number of other factors that could skew the results.

I guess this all boils down to one question - what did Dancey hope to achieve with his test? We've already ascertained within about 20 posts on here that such a test would be faulty on many levels.

 

[Turanil]

"if he's naked, how do people know he's a cop?"

Because of the cap?