Rules Interactions: Hybrids & Multiclassing

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't have my books in front of me- loaned out to the DM- but it occurred to me that there's an oddball interaction between the Hybrid rules and the Multiclassing rules...specifically the Power-Swap feats.

The Hybrid rules state you have to maintain a balance between your Hybrid classes in the # of At Wills, Encounter, Daily and Utility powers. Power swaps exchange one power from your "base" class with one from your multiclass.

Does this mean you can't take a Power-Swap feat until you're eligible for the 3rd power of a given level or could you take a P-S feat as per normal?

IOW, would it be possible for a Hybrid PC w/Multiclassing to take the first P-S feat at 4th level, thus having 1 Encounter from one of his Hybrid classes, 1 from his multiclass, and none from his second hybrid class?

 

[Xeterog]

you don't have to maintain a balance in hybrid powers. The rule is that if you have 2 or more powers of a certain category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, or utility, IIRC), then at least one must come from each Hybrid class.


for your example, you have 2 encounter powers, so 1 must be from Hybrid class 1, and the other from Hybrid class 2. Unless I'm missing something, by RAW, you could not swap out for your MC class until you have 3 encounter attack powers.

(if it was to come up in a campaign I ran, I would let you do the swap..but I don't think it's possible by the rules).

 

[Knowme]

you don't have to maintain a balance in hybrid powers. The rule is that if you have 2 or more powers of a certain category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, or utility, IIRC), then at least one must come from each Hybrid class.


for your example, you have 2 encounter powers, so 1 must be from Hybrid class 1, and the other from Hybrid class 2. Unless I'm missing something, by RAW, you could not swap out for your MC class until you have 3 encounter attack powers.

(if it was to come up in a campaign I ran, I would let you do the swap..but I don't think it's possible by the rules).

Specific > General.

A specific feat (MC power swap) should beat the general hybrid rule.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I would allow the swap. First, you choose the opower form one of your classes, and then you swap it out. If you got a thrid power, I would make you take it in the class you
swapped out, but would not see a problem with it overall.

I find the idea of the pwoers/feats that let you have a reserve encounter/utility/daily more troubleseom from a rules perspective as they can be changed after short rests or extended rests.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My apologies for poor wording, the result of not having PHB3 in front of me. By balance, I meant "If you have 2 or more powers of a certain category, then at least one must come from each Hybrid class."

Unless I'm missing something, by RAW, you could not swap out for your MC class until you have 3 encounter attack powers.

That's exactly what I'm asking about, and that was my interpretation as well, but having only PHB1 in front of me, I wasn't sure.

If that is true, then that effectively raises the level for the Novice Power-Swap feat from 4th to 8th, Acolyte from 8th to 10th...thus effectively shutting Multiclassed Hybrids from taking advantage of Paragon multiclassing in their 3rd class.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I'm with the "specific over general" crowd that says the power swap feats are fine. The intention of the hybrid rules is to prevent the system from being used for "dipping" - that's what the multiclass rules are for. However, the hybrid system doesn't supercede the multiclass system; you can still take the multiclass feats to swap out powers.

However, even if you don't follow that line of reasoning, there is a RAW to qualify for paragon multiclassing - retraining feats. You can retrain your feats as soon as you qualify for them. To use your example, you could retrain another feat at 10th level to grab Expert Multiclass (I think that's the name) and still qualify for Paragon Multiclassing.

 

[NMcCoy]

Basically, the way I've always understood/played/run it, if you are (for example) Cleric/Fighter, you can't take a second Cleric encounter attack unless you have at least one Fighter encounter attack (and this constraint must hold after power swapping).

On a related note, once you hit level 7, it's perfectly legit to retrain to Clr Enc 1/Clr Enc 3/Ftr Enc 7.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My apologies for poor wording, the result of not having PHB3 in front of me. By balance, I meant "If you have 2 or more powers of a certain category, then at least one must come from each Hybrid class."


That's exactly what I'm asking about, and that was my interpretation as well, but having only PHB1 in front of me, I wasn't sure.

If that is true, then that effectively raises the level for the Novice Power-Swap feat from 4th to 8th, Acolyte from 8th to 10th...thus effectively shutting Multiclassed Hybrids from taking advantage of Paragon multiclassing in their 3rd class.

Yeah, but there are 2 things to say on that score. 1 has been said already, retraining saves you from this issue. Since by level 10 you'll have 3 of each type of power you can manage to retrain into 3 PS feats before 11th level and then PMC.

Secondly though, does anyone honestly care? I mean as theorycraft its one thing, but are you REALLY seriously contemplating making say a Fighter|Ranger/Rogue/PMC (Rogue)??? Heck, lets throw in a Theme while we're at it!

Honestly I think its just a non-issue in any practical sense. Even if you couldn't do it what would you be losing? The ability to make a character with pretty much no hope of being good at anything. I suppose someone will come up with some highly munchkinesque example of a character that does 9,432 DPR at level 30 or something because of this, but I just pretty much laugh at those players (actually I just don't let them in the door...).

 

[circadianwolf]

It's not a case of specific > general because the multiclass rules don't conflict with the hybrid rules. The multiclass feats simply allow you to swap powers; they don't say anything about overriding the hybrid rules, so they don't.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Secondly though, does anyone honestly care? I mean as theorycraft its one thing, but are you REALLY seriously contemplating making say a Fighter|Ranger/Rogue/PMC (Rogue)???

Not that combo, no, but Hybrids w/multiclasses? Absolutely and unequivocally "Yes!"...and possibly even taking the MC Paragon path.

Most of my 4Ed PC designs are Hybrids. Some have taken multiclass feats. None has, as yet, taken a Power-Swap feat, but I guarantee you I wouldn't have considered making this thread without giving the question serious thought.