Rules Interactions: Hybrids & Multiclassing

[Knowme]

It's not a case of specific > general because the multiclass rules don't conflict with the hybrid rules. The multiclass feats simply allow you to swap powers; they don't say anything about overriding the hybrid rules, so they don't.

I'm not sure I understand this logic. You can take the feat - you meet all the prerequisites. Therefore you should do what the (specific) feat tells you to do, which is swap a power.

The fact that the (general) hybrid rules say you can't is a conflict. It's resolved by specific > general - the feat wins.

 

[Shin Okada]

I also vote specific tramples general.

# In case of non-hybrid character
General: You can only take powers of your class.
Specific: With a power swapping feat you can swap one of your power with a power from another specific class.

# In case of hybrid character
General: You should balance-up powers from 2 classes.
Specific: With a power swapping feat you can swap one of your power with a power from another specific class.

 

[Ajar]

Yeah, but there are 2 things to say on that score. 1 has been said already, retraining saves you from this issue. Since by level 10 you'll have 3 of each type of power you can manage to retrain into 3 PS feats before 11th level and then PMC.

This is correct. I play a Rogue|Warlock hybrid with an Assassin multiclass and I'm looking at some of the power-swap feats. If you make a hybrid in the Character Builder, it won't let you swap a power via a power-swap feat until you already have 3 powers of a given type. This doesn't stop you from paragon multiclassing, though.

Where things get really ridiculous is if you're using backgrounds and take the one that lets you multiclass twice instead of once. You could have four classes.

 

[circadianwolf]

I'm not sure I understand this logic. You can take the feat - you meet all the prerequisites. Therefore you should do what the (specific) feat tells you to do, which is swap a power.

The fact that the (general) hybrid rules say you can't is a conflict. It's resolved by specific > general - the feat wins.

Just because they interact doesn't mean there's a conflict. Specific > general is for a rules element that specifically contradicts a more general rules element, e.g. you can't take a feat more than once but a specific feat says you can take this feat more than once. The power swap feats don't contradict anything in the hybrid rules; you can take the feats when you meet the prerequisites, but you can't swap a power until you also meet the hybrid rules' requirements. Like man and fish, they can coexist peacefully.

 

[Solvarn]

Correct

Correct, you need to have at least 1 type of encounter power, utility, and daily from each class before being able to use the novice, acolyte, or adept feats.

Also, standard multiclass paragon path is a waste, the hybrid paragon path gives you the same thing (I think) with an extra dose of Hybrid talent.

 

[Mika]

My apologies for poor wording, the result of not having PHB3 in front of me. By balance, I meant "If you have 2 or more powers of a certain category, then at least one must come from each Hybrid class."


That's exactly what I'm asking about, and that was my interpretation as well, but having only PHB1 in front of me, I wasn't sure.

If that is true, then that effectively raises the level for the Novice Power-Swap feat from 4th to 8th, Acolyte from 8th to 10th...thus effectively shutting Multiclassed Hybrids from taking advantage of Paragon multiclassing in their 3rd class.

Not true. You still have access to full use of Adept Power as early as 10th level. You can use your retraining at level 10 to gain both Acolyte Power and Adept Power at that level, or you could defer one of them until 11th level. Either way, you qualify for paragon multiclassing. Why you would want to do that is a separate issue.

 

[frogged]

For the people arguing above that the power swap feats create a specific vs general rules interaction, you are correct about there being a collision, but are mistaken about both where the collision occurs and the outcome. A hybrid character can not swap out an encounter (or other type) of power without having at least three of them and here is why:

"Even if you later change your powers through retraining, power-swap feats, or some other means, you must retain at least one power in each of those four categories from both of your classes" -PHB3 pg136

In this case the power swap feat is actually the more general rule, with the hybrid rules being the specific.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So, sorting this all out...

A Hybrid Multiclassed PC has to have 3 powers of a given level before he can opt for a power swap feat. I think we can agree on this because, as frogged pointed out, there is a specific PHB3 rule that covers this.

As to WHEN this can occur, I'm not sure I follow, because I'm not 100% clear on the retraining rules. What aspects of a PC's design, exactly, can you retrain?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So, sorting this all out...

A Hybrid Multiclassed PC has to have 3 powers of a given level before he can opt for a power swap feat. I think we can agree on this because, as frogged pointed out, there is a specific PHB3 rule that covers this.

As to WHEN this can occur, I'm not sure I follow, because I'm not 100% clear on the retraining rules. What aspects of a PC's design, exactly, can you retrain?

You can retrain any feat (as long as it doesn't form a prerequisite for something else). That's all you need to be able to do. You can do that once per level up. Most players that are optimizing this much will take a 'filler' feat at 10th level and retrain it to a paragon feat at 11th though. Bards would seem to be the class to go do this with.

 

[sigfile]

Correct, you need to have at least 1 type of encounter power, utility, and daily from each class before being able to use the novice, acolyte, or adept feats.

Alternatively, you're required to take an encounter/utility/daily from whatever class you swapped out the next time you're able. It's like leveling up a hybrid - you take your first encounter power from one class, and then you have to take an encounter power from your second class at third level.