Rules Never Prevent RPing? (But Minis Seem To Do So?)

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I still don't see how people aren't acting in-character when they move a few feet to the side so they can flank the minotaur, or avoid running right past a line of orcs in order to avoid being stabbed to death.

I mean, maybe I'm just strange, but I like to try to maximize my advantages and, above all else, try to stay alive and more or less unharmed when I fight. I don't think it's unrealistic for my characters to have the same goal.
 

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genshou said:
I still don't see how people aren't acting in-character when they move a few feet to the side so they can flank the minotaur, or avoid running right past a line of orcs in order to avoid being stabbed to death.

I mean, maybe I'm just strange, but I like to try to maximize my advantages and, above all else, try to stay alive and more or less unharmed when I fight. I don't think it's unrealistic for my characters to have the same goal.

I don't disagree with this at all. More generally, I should re-iterate that by roleplaying I don't mean what Third Wizard seems to - namely, a lot of in-character dialogue and rich description of character actions. Nor do I mean the making of sub-optimal choices, like deliberately getting hit or killed for no good reason. What I do mean by rolepalying (and I think it is also what Lost Soul has in mind) is character actions which reflect particular roleplaying commitments the player has made, through both the build and the play of his or her character.

With this conception of roleplaying in mind, I gave my reasons for preferring verbal description to battlemat in an earlier post. Broadly, it was that verbal description makes it easier for the referee to give different information to different characters that reflects each character's position, skills (especially perception skills) and so on. This is not to discourage PCs from choosing clever tactics. Rather, it is to create an environment where those choices are more likely to reflect the roleplaying commitments on the character sheets (eg a choice to put few ranks in perception reflects a commitment to playing a character who is easily lost in the "fog of battle").

In comparison, I feel that a battlemat leads to a certain homogenisation of character response to the battle, because all of them have a general's-eye view of the situation.
Under verbal description it is very easy for a character to roleplay the fact that they haven't heard what another character has called out over the din of battle, because all that's required is for that other character not to speak to them, but only to the GM, or those other players whose characters can hear. But on a battlemat, I think it is harder to play that situation. In fact, the need for characters to call for aid, issue instructions or whatever becomes much less, because every player can see the tactical situation and the urgency of responding to it in various ways without any need for character-to-character communication.

Hussar critiqued my sort of approach above (although he did moderate the critique a bit later on) on the basis that it is unrealistic that adventurers would not notice what's going on on the battlefield. But I find that, especially in high level play, it is not that unrealistic. On a battlefield which has a number of characters able to fly at 60' per second, invisible or teleporting foes, obscuring terrain (or very big foes who are themselves obscuring terrain for anyone in melee with them!), spell casters screaming out magic in arcane languages, paladins whose weapons are singing inspring songs of courage, and so on, I think that any single character's ability to take in all the action, round by round, does depend to a significant extent on that character's perception skills. (Espcially because I don't play a very dungeon or trap-heavy game, the combat advantage of good perception is a major reason why some players build characters who are good at it.)

Even in low-to-mid level play, think of a scene like the final battle in the first Lord of the Rings movie. Part of the excitement and drama stems from the fact that not every protagonist has perfect information about the shape and progress of the battle. A battlemat provides that information, and therefore (I believe) makes it harder for roleplay to reflect its absence.

To return to a different point I made earlier, a mechanic which gave PCs the power to determine certain scene details which have not been specified by the GM, and which might be relevant for tactical decision-making (eg is the villain's room lit by lanterns - a ready source of oil - or by candles?) would not discourage tactical play in the sense you describe above, but it may be likely to encourage a certain type of roleplay (closer to what Three Wizards has in mind), namely, greater player immersion in the details of the scene, and a greater readiness to look for little points of tactical advantage that depend on as-yet unspecified details.

I hope the above explains why I agree with a lot of what you and Hussar have said about the relationship between tactics and roleplaying, but still think that a battlemat can make roleplaying harder, and also think that the mechanics of character creation, action resolution and so on can have an important effect on roleplaying.
 

pemerton said:
In comparison, I feel that a battlemat leads to a certain homogenisation of character response to the battle, because all of them have a general's-eye view of the situation.
As my earlier post in the thread indicated, I think it's more a problem of immersion than of anything else. The battlemat tends to pull players out of the narrative scene and into "battlemat mode," IMO.
 

Philotomy Jurament said:
As my earlier post in the thread indicated, I think it's more a problem of immersion than of anything else. The battlemat tends to pull players out of the narrative scene and into "battlemat mode," IMO.

I think this is a good point if you are playing a high-immersion game. Maybe in part due to my lazy GM-ing, the game I run tends not to have a lot of the immersion you describe in your post. So for me the issue of character response to information tends to be more important.

The last time I did run a really immersion-heavy combat was a year or so ago, in a highly-modified version of Madness in Freeport (set in an Oriental Adventures world using RM mechanics for 20th level characters and taking ideas from Monte Cook's Requiem for a God). In that combat, a Far Realms-esque conjunction was taking place above the lighthouse, causing a lot of reality warping.

We had one character whose fly spell had shifted him into the ethereal plane, where he had a whole other perception of the dead god on whose body the lighthouse was resting. A duplicate of that character (created using a high-level spell) was also in on the action, fighting in the water. We had another character using True Sight and therefore seeing the "truth" about the warping of space and time, and finding himself able to move outside the normal parameters by willing himself through the various layers of "unreality" that he was perceiving. A third character stuck with mundane perceptions was getting thoroughly confused by all the strange movements that the other characters were performing, and also by the presence of the duplicate of his ally, which he thought might be an illusion or a trap. He shot the duplicate with an arrow and then fought his way to the top of the lighthouse in order to try and smash the crystalline lens that was the focus of its light. Meanwhile the holy warrior was at the base of the lighthouse, receiving strange visions from the dead god and fighting cultists who were arriving by boat to try and save their ritual.

A lot of the fun of that combat depended on playing off the different character's perception and interpretation of what was going on, and their uncertainty about what it all meant, what the other characters could see and do, and their interaction with a reasonably complex (at least by my roleplaying standards) geographical setting for the fight (multi-level building, narrow stairs, small windows, water, boats, island (= dead god) in motion, etc). I'm not sure a battlemat would have made it possible to achieve the same intensity of play. (I'm also not sure how you do duplicates with a battlemat - can't everyone tell which is the real PC because that's the mini that gets moved when that player calls his/her action?)
 

Pemerton said:
Hussar critiqued my sort of approach above (although he did moderate the critique a bit later on) on the basis that it is unrealistic that adventurers would not notice what's going on on the battlefield. But I find that, especially in high level play, it is not that unrealistic. On a battlefield which has a number of characters able to fly at 60' per second, invisible or teleporting foes, obscuring terrain (or very big foes who are themselves obscuring terrain for anyone in melee with them!), spell casters screaming out magic in arcane languages, paladins whose weapons are singing inspring songs of courage, and so on, I think that any single character's ability to take in all the action, round by round, does depend to a significant extent on that character's perception skills. (Espcially because I don't play a very dungeon or trap-heavy game, the combat advantage of good perception is a major reason why some players build characters who are good at it.

But, let's be fairly realistic here. The vast majority of combats feature 1-6 opponents and 4-6 PC's. We're not talking about the mass battle scenarios because most campaigns don't feature those. Some do, but that is pretty far beyond assumed play. Even at high level, we're not talking about huge battles, more along the lines of small fights - 10 participants at the most.

Yes, if there are reasons why perceptions should be limited, that's fine - and there are many reasons why - but, by and large, there aren't that many variables going on in a fight. Even flying at 60 feet per second, is only 40 miles per hour. We're not talking race cars here. And, it's pretty rare for characters to get a 360 flight speed. Possible, but not likely.

Add to this the likelyhood that most encounters occur at under 100 feet, and you have even less problems with visibility.

I think there is a danger here of overstating the confusion of battle. At high level, our characters are veterans of dozens, if not over a hundred fights. These are not conscripts, these are battle hardened warriors who've seen pretty much anything. How rattled they are going to become is questionable.

Maybe I'm just not that narratively minded. To me, the narrative is what the character does in the fight. Not how he feels, or what he sees or not sees, but what he does. THe narrative comes after the fight.
 

Try to do so in a chess club, and the second time you do it, the guy on the other side of the board will ask you, in varying degrees of polite depending on the individual, to shut the hell up and stop breaking his concentration.

I think that largely depends upon the chess club you're in.

In the one I used to belong to, things got pretty boisterous. Beyond my frequent claims of "Checkmate in 4 moves" or the like, there was a LOT of smack talking.

Piece-appropriate sound effects like whinnys would have seemed almost...quaint.

Were I to somehow wind up playing Gary Kasparov, OTOH, I think a single whinnny would be about the limit, depending upon his reaction. I'd do it, too- especially if there were an audience. There is something to be said, IMHO, for displaying a bit of style and fortitude in the face of impossible odds.

Somehow, I don't think a little sound-effect would prevent GK from finishing me off in 25 moves. Or less. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't respond to a 3rd whinny with "Checkmate in 14 moves" and a shark-like grin.

Back on point, I'm firmly in the camp that minis are more role-playing aid than hinderance. Being able to clearly and definitively visualize the battlespace lets me react more easily like I believe my PC would react. Heck, minis help me design PCs sometimes- my last 3 PCs were all based around or refined by the visual cues of minis.

IMHO, rules and game mechanics are far more intrusive into the RPing process than minis ever will be- but that is as it should be. Minis are the tools that let us envision what our constructed PCs are doing- rules and game mechanics not only do that, but also form the boundaries in which our PCs are created, act, grow and die. I may wish to play an omnipotent god as a 1st level PC, but the rules (not the minis) won't let me.
 

Hussar said:
Maybe I'm just not that narratively minded. To me, the narrative is what the character does in the fight. Not how he feels, or what he sees or not sees, but what he does. THe narrative comes after the fight.

I'm surprised to see you seperate out the narrative from the fight. For me the fight is part and parcel of the narrative. Breaking it up in to fight vs narrative seems rather artificial.
 

I think you misread what I said. I said that the narrative is "what the character does in the fight". Ok, I did say that the narrative comes afterwards. I should have said, the "story" comes afterwards. Two meanings of the word narrative. My bad.

What Dannyalcatraz said:

Dannyalcatraz said:
Back on point, I'm firmly in the camp that minis are more role-playing aid than hinderance. Being able to clearly and definitively visualize the battlespace lets me react more easily like I believe my PC would react. Heck, minis help me design PCs sometimes- my last 3 PCs were all based around or refined by the visual cues of minis.

IMHO, rules and game mechanics are far more intrusive into the RPing process than minis ever will be- but that is as it should be. Minis are the tools that let us envision what our constructed PCs are doing- rules and game mechanics not only do that, but also form the boundaries in which our PCs are created, act, grow and die. I may wish to play an omnipotent god as a 1st level PC, but the rules (not the minis) won't let me.

is pretty much exactly what I would say if I was smarter and could make my point better.
 


Hussar said:
I think you misread what I said. I said that the narrative is "what the character does in the fight". Ok, I did say that the narrative comes afterwards. I should have said, the "story" comes afterwards. Two meanings of the word narrative. My bad.

I do not understand how "story" stops before a fight and continues again afterwards. The transition from imaginig the adventure in one's head to visualizing it via minis does seem to resemble the transition from one type of gaming to another. So perhaps the story can in a way stop and then continue with a miniatures tactical mini-game (pardon the pun) in between.

However, I think that we'll probably have to agree to disagree as I consider narrative/story and fights to be part of the same thing. The fight is part of the story and the story is in part played out during the fight.
 

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