Rules Question: Non-Good Half Celestial

[nijineko]

umm, inherent ability to do so should be a non-issue. a certain high mucky-muck of the evil side was a celestial originally. quite a few were actually. (hence the pact primeval, etc....) and a certain fiery chap may just possibly be closet-evil to boot. so alignment changes have certainly been allowed in the past for "always" type alignment creatures. the results will likely depend on the current alignment and so forth.

though i do not allow evil pcs in my games, i specifically have deleted the "always x alignment" from my rules as well.

 

[Tharkon]

Normally Half-Celestials have to be Good and the spell-like ability assumes this.

If they are not good, perhaps replace the ability with a similar ability that does match, Dictum or Word of Chaos perhaps, replacing Smite Evil, Detect Evil, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Protection from Evil, Holy Aura and Hallow with lawful or chaotic abilities as well, reflecting how the half-celestial takes more after the lawful or chaotic nature of Archons or Eladrins respectively.

There better be a good explanation for why the half-celestial isn't good either.

 

[Empirate]

Normally Half-Celestials have to be Good and the spell-like ability assumes this.

If they are not good, perhaps replace the ability with a similar ability that does match, Dictum or Word of Chaos perhaps, replacing Smite Evil, Detect Evil, Holy Smite, Dispel Evil, Protection from Evil, Holy Aura and Hallow with lawful or chaotic abilities as well, reflecting how the half-celestial takes more after the lawful or chaotic nature of Archons or Eladrins respectively.

There better be a good explanation for why the half-celestial isn't good either.

"Have to be good"... where do you get this from? Normally, Half-Celestials ARE good. But there can be exceptions, obviously.
"The spell-like ability assumes this"... again, in what way? Just because some of the spell-like abilities have happy, fuzzy, feel-good connotations? No reason why a N Cleric can't cast Detect Evil (useful spell sometimes), so why should Half-Celestials be limited that way?

As for the "there better be a good explanation" part, why not just leave that bit to the OP? He's the DM, after all, and not at all dependent on your endorsement of his decisions.

 

[Tharkon]

"Have to be good"... where do you get this from? Normally, Half-Celestials ARE good. But there can be exceptions, obviously.
"The spell-like ability assumes this"... again, in what way? Just because some of the spell-like abilities have happy, fuzzy, feel-good connotations? No reason why a N Cleric can't cast Detect Evil (useful spell sometimes), so why should Half-Celestials be limited that way?

As for the "there better be a good explanation" part, why not just leave that bit to the OP? He's the DM, after all, and not at all dependent on your endorsement of his decisions.

In the Half-Celestial template, under alignment it says "Always good (any)".
Being good is what makes the half-celestial half-celestial, if he isn't good then he isn't celestial at all. Only when it's watered down to Aasimar level it becomes "Usually good (any)".

Detect Evil isn't a Good spell, I know that. But the spell is there because creatures if immense good get that ability, just like Paladins have that ability. A creature of pure evil has Detect Good, so a creature of pure chaos would have Detect Law, etc.

Props for half-celestials. I've got a half-celestial werebear running around in my game right now.

A half-celestial is immune to lycanthropy. Though I suppose trough some divine power you could make a half-celestial out of an existing werebear, normally half-celestial is an inherited template.

 

[the Jester]

Can't be non-good and be a half-celestial. Can't.

Sure you can.

Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions.

Besides that, though, a dm can certainly apply any template he wishes to any monster he wishes, making any changes he wishes. Published modules and adventures show several such exceptions- I think I recall a vampiric gibbering mouther in one, for instance. Templates are not restraints on the dm, they are tools for him to use. Dms have been making monsters with surprising exceptions to the rules since long before 1e.

 

[ThaDium]

A half-celestial is immune to lycanthropy. Though I suppose trough some divine power you could make a half-celestial out of an existing werebear, normally half-celestial is an inherited template.

I know, but if it's a true werebear, I see no reason why it can't breed with a celestial. Hence, a half-celestial were bear. I have decided, though, that he can choose to pass on the curse of lycanthropy or not. Generally not.

 

[Tharkon]

I know, but if it's a true werebear, I see no reason why it can't breed with a celestial. Hence, a half-celestial were bear. I have decided, though, that he can choose to pass on the curse of lycanthropy or not. Generally not.

Hmm, you're right, true lycanthropy is inherited as well, so you could apply the two templates in any order, and applying lycantrophy before half-celestial makes it valid even by RAW since lycanthropes are still humanoids, just ones with the shapechanger subtype. The result would "Outsider (human, native, shapechanger)" I think, since I notice that the Half-Celestial template doesn't specify the loss of any subtypes. It would make a lot of sense for the celestial parent to be an Ursinal in this case. Werebears are good lycanthropes too (lawful good to be specific), so such union is not even that unlikely.

 

[dragonfriend7738]

In the Half-Celestial template, under alignment it says "Always good (any)".
Being good is what makes the half-celestial half-celestial, if he isn't good then he isn't celestial at all. Only when it's watered down to Aasimar level it becomes "Usually good (any)".

I was under the assumption that Half-Celestials were half-celestial because a creature of some sort had an interesting evening with an angel.

The alignmnets of one's parents hold no sway over their own alignment- at least, not past the age where they start to think and act for themselves. Being descended from the gods does not make you follow their directives; it just removes the question of whether or not they exist.

-My two cents.

 

[Tharkon]

While the the MM does say there are rare exceptions to the Always alignments, what it basically means is not that there is some rule they have to be that alignment ingame. They simply tend to be that alignment cause it's in their blood. In a similar way that elves tend to be Chaotic Good but in a much much much stronger way.

Strict upbringing and life-changing events could alter that I suppose.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Basically, it depends on what your definition of "is" is.

"I did not have relations with that succubus paladin."