D&D 5E Rules questions from our game

[brehobit]

OK,
A few rules questions and one meta-game question.

• Can a monk take his flurry-of-blows bonus action before his normal attack? I thought there was an FAQ answer that said you could do bonus actions before regular actions even if the bonus action required an certain standard action. But I can't find it.
• What are people's thoughts on a monk using defensive duelist when unarmed? We think it's probably a no-go by RAW but reasonable RAI.
• DM had a caster create an illusion where the all future spells cast were centered on that illusion. I vaguely remember seeing a way to do that, but I can't find it. Is there a spell or ability that allows that?

 

[Blue]

1. I don't have the link, but Sage Advice clarified that you can take the Shield Master bonus action before you make your attacks, so the monk making flurry first seems allowed as well.

2. By RAW, Defensive Duelist is not allowed with a monk using unarmed. The monk unarmed (a) aren't weapons (recent sage advice - you can make melee weapon attacks with them, but they aren't actually weapons) and (b) aren't finesse, just "can use dexterity in place of strength". All of that said, I'd completely allow it in my campaign. Not overpowered and meets the flavor.

3. The cleric Trickster domain allows the illusion of you and then your spells come from it as channel divinity: invoke duplicity. There may be other ways as well.

 

[Inchoroi]

OK,
A few rules questions and one meta-game question.

• Can a monk take his flurry-of-blows bonus action before his normal attack? I thought there was an FAQ answer that said you could do bonus actions before regular actions even if the bonus action required an certain standard action. But I can't find it.
• What are people's thoughts on a monk using defensive duelist when unarmed? We think it's probably a no-go by RAW but reasonable RAI.
• DM had a caster create an illusion where the all future spells cast were centered on that illusion. I vaguely remember seeing a way to do that, but I can't find it. Is there a spell or ability that allows that?

The Flurry of Blows, IIRC, says it has to come after the monk has made an attack with their main hand, so no, can't use Flurry of Blows first, although they can attack unarmed as their main attack action.

I'd allow it, because it's cool, and I think RAI its okay; with the new errata, making unarmed attacks not weapons, it probably wouldn't.

IIRC, Trickery domain clerics have that ability, but I'd need to get a look at my books to be 100%. Gimme about an hour.

 

[billd91]

The description of flurry of blows does say "immediately after you take the Attack action", so I'd say you're stuck having to do the flurry after your normal attack. The shield master feat lacks any language about timing. Though I'd have to say that taking the bonus action before the action that grants the bonus should lock the PC in to his course of actions. Once you take that bonus action, you would owe an attack action for that round.

 

[Rune]

OK,
A few rules questions and one meta-game question.

• Can a monk take his flurry-of-blows bonus action before his normal attack? I thought there was an FAQ answer that said you could do bonus actions before regular actions even if the bonus action required an certain standard action. But I can't find it.
• What are people's thoughts on a monk using defensive duelist when unarmed? We think it's probably a no-go by RAW but reasonable RAI.

1: I think, technically, how it would play out is, take Attack Action, trigger Flurry of Blows, then make Attack Action attacks and Flurry of Blows attacks in any order, with movement interspersed as desired and any Reactions taken as triggered.

2: The monk may make unarmed strikes even while wielding a monk weapon (as Flurry of Blows illustrates), so, by RAW, even if all of its attacks are unarmed, the monk may use Defensive Dualist merely by holding a shortsword or dagger.

 

[kerbarian]

Almost every bonus action with a trigger says "when you do X, you can take bonus action Y", so you can do them in any order. Flurry of Blows is explicit, though, that it happens after you take the triggering Attack action. I suspect the reason they made the order explicit for Flurry is so that an Open Hand monk can't start out with Flurry to knock an opponent prone and then take the rest of her attacks with Advantage.

 

[Blue]

Almost every bonus action with a trigger says "when you do X, you can take bonus action Y", so you can do them in any order. Flurry of Blows is explicit, though, that it happens after you take the triggering Attack action. I suspect the reason they made the order explicit for Flurry is so that an Open Hand monk can't start out with Flurry to knock an opponent prone and then take the rest of her attacks with Advantage.

I think you've convinced me, though it was tough. Shield Master says "If you take the attack action...", which does imply that the attack action has occured, but Sage Advice has clarified (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/29/shield-master-feat/).

Q: Timing of Shield Master bonus shove. Does "take attack action" mean make 1 or all att rolls 1st? or can shove then attack?
A: As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.

But I do see that "most" in the answer. Flurry of Blow's language is more specific "Immediately after you take the Attack action...". It's back and forth, but "immediately after" is more restricting than Shield Master (for example you couldn't move like you could normally between attacks) so I'll take that it means what it says and not the looser interpretation from Sage Advice.

(As a side note, Since Shield Master can also prone, the fact that Jeremy Crawford is okay with it going before the attack action dispels "so you can't prone first" as a rules intent for me. But you'd already convinced me so it's moot.)

 

[Rune]

Almost every bonus action with a trigger says "when you do X, you can take bonus action Y", so you can do them in any order. Flurry of Blows is explicit, though, that it happens after you take the triggering Attack action. I suspect the reason they made the order explicit for Flurry is so that an Open Hand monk can't start out with Flurry to knock an opponent prone and then take the rest of her attacks with Advantage.

Upon reflection, the language does seem deliberate. I would think that it's intended to prevent a monk from using and then activating Quivering Palm in the same turn--except the bonus action unarmed strike that monks get from Martial Arts uses the same phrasing as Shield Master, which would appear to allow it.

 

[kerbarian]

Upon reflection, the language does seem deliberate. I would think that it's intended to prevent a monk from using and then activating Quivering Palm in the same turn--except the bonus action unarmed strike that monks get from Martial Arts uses the same phrasing as Shield Master, which would appear to allow it.

Yes, if you take your bonus unarmed strike from Martial Arts, it can happen before your regular attacks (just like the Shield Master shove). But you can't take the Martial Arts attack and then decide to use your action for something else (e.g. Quivering Palm). You've already chosen that your action is Attack (in order to trigger Martial Arts), you can just take that action sometime later during your turn.

A high-level monk with Haste is a scary thing, though. You could use your Haste action to make a single attack, then Flurry for two more attacks (setting up Quivering Palm on any one of the three), then use your regular action to trigger Quivering Palm.

 

[brehobit]

So far the answer is you have to take your attack first: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/619673485195870208