Rules/Rolls for Running a Shop

[Theo R Cwithin]

isnt that from mt zogonia...the evil druidess using the ooze to bathe...

Oooh! Evil druidess in an ooze bath! Mmmm, sexy.
I'm not familiar with Mt.Zogonia, but I'm sure the ooze bath idea's been done before; it seems kind of obvious to me, especially in this day and age of Purell and body wash! I can think think of all kinds of applications for oozes (of varying degrees of dangerousness) in day-to-day life, industry, religion, and the like.

 

[lordxaviar]

Oooh! Evil druidess in an ooze bath! Mmmm, sexy.
I'm not familiar with Mt.Zogonia, but I'm sure the ooze bath idea's been done before; it seems kind of obvious to me, especially in this day and age of Purell and body wash! I can think think of all kinds of applications for oozes (of varying degrees of dangerousness) in day-to-day life, industry, religion, and the like.

from dragon magazine... she walked around talking to a potted mushroom that spoke back... great strip.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

from dragon magazine... she walked around talking to a potted mushroom that spoke back... great strip.

Awesome! Ooze baths? Talking mushrooms? How could that not be a great strip??

There's so much I missed by not reading the old magazines.

 

[lordxaviar]

it had a site for a month or so and then vanished.... you can get a torrent of all the old dragons..

 

[nijineko]

in response to your comments, i've always handled it via rp. i recall one time that our characters were tasked with guarding a merchant caravan on a risky route. sure enough we were attacked numerous times. my character has several notable traits, one of which is hating wastefulness. so she would loot the corpses of the dead enemies of anything usable and practical. she wound up with a collection of armor, weapons, and clothes, and sundries... the rest of the party didn't like the idea, and she wound up having to give the merchants her salary back in trade for space on their wagons to store her loot!! in the end she sold it or traded it to outposts that needed replacement arms and armor and weren't too picky about where it came from... the royal supply was long in coming! she made more money during the trip than anyone else.

this was worked out via some dialogue between myself and the dm, with some rolls to see how good a job i did selling. between the two, the dm decided the value i'd won. frequently, we'd trade for things we wanted, even if not equivalent value. and sometimes we'd give things away for the rp connection / favor that would result from the generosity. we've paid for an expert to take his architect guild exam (guess who's going to build our place once we settle down?), we've freed dwarven prisoners and a few human merchant prisoners and fed and clothed, armed and armored them so they could safely make it back home, and won their goodwill in the bargin. (guess who makes our weapons and armor now? and guess from whom we buy oddities and sundries?) the dm includes a mild discount for anything we purchase through our contacts. we have less cargo, we have less on-hand treasure, we have future contacts, and we have small discounts that remind us of our heroic deeds on a continual basis.

all in all, both the dm and us players feel we are winning. =D

 

[Jacob]

Finally found another thread that speaks my mind on this, though it's in another forum (not that it's a bad thing, but as it goes). The topic starter really go to me, because he got it right: if you sell an item you crafted to a merchant, you actually lose money/XP. Sadly, there wasn't much else present on how to be a merchant, other than create incredibly complex mechanics for something which shouldn't be that complex. I think.

On having the goods being sold via RP, I find that to be a waste of time. I'm pretty hard set on selling the goods at 100%, and the constant hagglers would grind the game to a halt (have a good feeling the DM may do this via past experiences). I feel it would help the game along if it simply worked out it's own and we wouldn't have to waste anyone's time on this one detail of the game.

Besides that, he told me I would receive 75% GP value of an item at max through the RP he has in mind, and I'm not looking for that. It's also based on what he feels we should have, adding yet another level of control besides what treasure we get from the enemies we face. I'd much rather have a selling system built around something he or I can't control, and is lead entirely by chance (dice if you will).

And no, we still don't have a solution to this issue in the game. What really bothers me is how I would immediately go with the idea I presented in my own game should anyone want to give it a try, yet no one's jumped on the prospect yet. Yes, DM preference and all, but all the same.

 

[lordxaviar]

The topic starter really go to me, because he got it right: if you sell an item you crafted to a merchant, you actually lose money/XP.

I dont agree because it shouldnt cost you the value of the finished item to craft it..

the only thing that comes to mind is in the real world...when crafting...if you want to earn a specific hourly wage for crafting...which would make any product outrageous in price.

 

[Jacob]

I dont agree because it shouldnt cost you the value of the finished item to craft it..

the only thing that comes to mind is in the real world...when crafting...if you want to earn a specific hourly wage for crafting...which would make any product outrageous in price.

To note, the topic starter was actually referring to items he was making, and selling those at half price to a merchant would lose him money. You can refer to the Crafting and Magic Item creation pages for reference, but a quick summary to explain...

To make a simple Longsword, I need to put in 5 GP, and should I roll 20 on my craft check consistently, it will be done in about 3.5 days, where upon I can sell it for 15 and get 2/3 a profit. If I wanted to make it Masterwork, that's a total of 105 GP, and with the same rolls it will be done in in about 1 week and 5.83 days (I love fractions!) and sold for 315 GP. A +1 Longsword brings on the Magic Item rules. Start with a Masterwork Longsword, spend one day with it at the cost of 1067 GP and 85 XP, whereafter I can sell it for 2315 GP, getting a profit of 718 GP (if I made the sword as well). And during all this crafting I can roll Profession checks to make another form of profit. 8 hours Crafting, 8 hours Profession, and 8 hours of rest. The life of a businessmen is complete. And as a hobby, I slay beholders for the king.

*ahem* In both of these scenarios, I'm losing money if I sell my goods at 50%. Okay, just the Magic crafting, because no XP is being expended in basic crafting. Every 1 XP is worth 5 GP, and the expenses of the +1 Longsword even without making the word myself would be 1492 GP, and selling a +1 Longsword for even 50% given me a profit of -334.5 GP. Sure, the profit is 244.25 GP if bumped to 75%, but that's a number that really doesn't sit well with me. I should not only be able to find a buyer for my creation at 100%, but be able to sell all this loot I found at a dragon's nest which I risked my life for. If I have my own shop, shouldn't I be able to earn the full profit from the wealth I accumulated?

 

[Elephant]

I think this entire issue can be boiled down to two questions:

1. Do you trust your DM to manage the wealth level so it doesn't ruin the fun?
2. Would you rather play a game about running a magic shop or about exploring strange dungeons? Sure, you can incorporate both, but if the DM doesn't think the shop is any fun, he won't want to deal with it.

 

[Jacob]

I think this entire issue can be boiled down to two questions:

1. Do you trust your DM to manage the wealth level so it doesn't ruin the fun?
2. Would you rather play a game about running a magic shop or about exploring strange dungeons? Sure, you can incorporate both, but if the DM doesn't think the shop is any fun, he won't want to deal with it.

1. Short answer, no.

Long answer, it has been pointed out constantly we are far below the average PC wealth as defined by the DMG for 7th/8th Level PCs. Not only that, but the most expensive items we ever got were a pair of swords, one +1 Frost the other Flaming. We had it shipped back to the shop so it could be sold, or at the very least put on display so it could bring in a crowd, because it was possible they could be weapons of a legendary dragon slayer.

However when we returned to the shop, we discovered a powerful assassin buying the swords. Sure, he bought them at full price, so no problem there, except they were sold to cover debt the shop supposedly incurred while away, leaving a profit of 4000 GP (a debt number decided upon before even figuring out how my shop would work). Keep in mind other items were sold while we were gone as well, including four Rings of Protection +1, four +1 weapons, and many other items.

So on top of trying to figure out what to do with the shop so we can actually get some wealth, we have no wealth to work with throughout the entire time. The DM also "sold" our treasure with not even an 1/8 of a return, including the most powerful weapons we've ever come across to an Assassin who is now even more powerful because of it. So no, I don't think he can handle the wealth level to make it fun for us, because he doesn't give us anything to begin with.

2. I'm a little appalled by this question, but I'll answer as best I can. Making and running a magic shop is a goal of my PC, one which he will not stray from. He has pride for his craft and his people, whom he seeks to elevate through this task. As a Player in his game, the DM should find a means to facilitate this goal I seek, regardless if he doesn't think it's fun or worthwhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessing and focusing just on the shop in regards to the game/campaign/what have you. It is merely the focus of discussion on this thread, and a hurdle that after two months has still not been resolved. I want to get back into adventuring, discovering mysteries and shaking the foundations of the earth, which I think/hope the DM wants to do. This shop? This is a thing in the game, which I hope will supplement the future gaming we do. But we are stuck until that can actually be figured out.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

It sounds like your DM isn't being very forthcoming. He's lacking in terms of character wealth and trying to work on the shop with you, and likely in other stuff. If he's worried about you guys hating him for the extra CR encounters then he's not designing them with your party in mind.

For the magic item deal, the listed price is of course what NPC's sell it for, and given all the examples of other expenses is probably the point where they're making a worthwhile profit. We don't have the specifics because it hasn't been published sadly.

I'd say what you effectively get from the item is its cost in Gold, XP, (and perhaps time), plus 10% of the item's listed price. So say a wondrous item is worth 10,000 gp. Its cost is 5,000 gp, 400 XP x 5 = 2000 gp. Add 10% of the total to that (1,000 in this case) and you get 8,000 gold. That's about what you should be able to sell an item for, which is 80% of the full price in this case. 70% of that is the cost to create an item, 20% is for other expenses, and then you get a 10% profit.

Does that seem reasonable?

By the way, where did you get the bit about 1 XP being worth 5 GP?

Edit: I found a page from another thread on here you might be interested in looking at: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dungeonomi...Economicon:_Making_Sense_of_the_Gold_Standard

 

[Elephant]

1. Short answer, no.

Long answer, it has been pointed out constantly we are far below the average PC wealth as defined by the DMG for 7th/8th Level PCs. Not only that, but the most expensive items we ever got were a pair of swords, one +1 Frost the other Flaming. We had it shipped back to the shop so it could be sold, or at the very least put on display so it could bring in a crowd, because it was possible they could be weapons of a legendary dragon slayer.

However when we returned to the shop, we discovered a powerful assassin buying the swords. Sure, he bought them at full price, so no problem there, except they were sold to cover debt the shop supposedly incurred while away, leaving a profit of 4000 GP (a debt number decided upon before even figuring out how my shop would work). Keep in mind other items were sold while we were gone as well, including four Rings of Protection +1, four +1 weapons, and many other items.

So on top of trying to figure out what to do with the shop so we can actually get some wealth, we have no wealth to work with throughout the entire time. The DM also "sold" our treasure with not even an 1/8 of a return, including the most powerful weapons we've ever come across to an Assassin who is now even more powerful because of it. So no, I don't think he can handle the wealth level to make it fun for us, because he doesn't give us anything to begin with.

2. I'm a little appalled by this question, but I'll answer as best I can. Making and running a magic shop is a goal of my PC, one which he will not stray from. He has pride for his craft and his people, whom he seeks to elevate through this task. As a Player in his game, the DM should find a means to facilitate this goal I seek, regardless if he doesn't think it's fun or worthwhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessing and focusing just on the shop in regards to the game/campaign/what have you. It is merely the focus of discussion on this thread, and a hurdle that after two months has still not been resolved. I want to get back into adventuring, discovering mysteries and shaking the foundations of the earth, which I think/hope the DM wants to do. This shop? This is a thing in the game, which I hope will supplement the future gaming we do. But we are stuck until that can actually be figured out.

Okay, follow-up on 1: Does your DM describe the campaign as a low-wealth or low-magic one? That issue might just be a mismatch in expectations ... I've met people who think that the "default" wealth-by-level guidelines were insanely extravagant...

Follow-up on 2: First, sorry to ask such an appalling question. I apologize if I came across as insulting -- I certainly didn't mean it that way! That said, I do see a note of entitlement in your reply: That the DM "should find a means" to incorporate running a magic shop into the game.

Frankly, if I were your DM, I'd say "No magic shops. It's too much of a hassle, and it takes too much time and energy away from the parts of the game I actually enjoy."

On a similar note, from what you've said about your DM, I doubt he's comfortable with trying to build a balanced set of rules for running a shop. It's a nifty idea to say "we'll run a magic shop and get more profit from selling our loot!", but it brings up a lot of business logistics where you have to wing it (or spend a lot of time coming up with detailed Papers and Paychecks rules ).

All that said, I do think it would be unreasonable to say "you get an extra 10%" from each item sold in the shop. Maybe make it a Profession: Shopkeeper/Magic Item Salesman check: if you roll a 15 on your Profession check, you get an extra 15% profit for the item. You'd need something to model how long it takes you to find a buyer ... my first idea would be to roll a die to see how many days or weeks it takes. Which die to use and whether it tells you the number of days or number of weeks is open to negotiation, with city size being a factor. Selling a +3 Shocking Burst sword in a hamlet just ain't gonna happen, but it might sell in under a week in a metropolis.

Mostly what you need is buy-in for the magic item shop from your DM, and for you both to agree on profit rules that a) give you more treasure than selling items at 50% and b) don't give you SO MUCH MORE treasure that you're too rich for him to manage the game.

If the DM feels like the game is spiraling out of control, you're going to have bigger problems than "how much extra should I be able to get by running a magic shop?"

Good luck working this all out with your DM Do you know if he uses any hobby-related websites like enworld?

 

[Jacob]

Update on the situation after responses...

By the way, where did you get the bit about 1 XP being worth 5 GP?

Edit: I found a page from another thread on here you might be interested in looking at: Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)/Economicon - Dungeons and Dragons Wiki

The 1 XP = 5 GP equation comes from the Good and Services section of spellcasting. As an example, having someone cast Greater Restoration for you would cost 3410 GP minimum (910 for the Spell Lvl * CL, and 2500 for the 500 XP cost).

And I've noticed the Economicon around the same time of my last post (almost a month!?!). I liked some things about it, and I disliked as well. All the same, a very well done piece of writing. Really all I can say until I delve deeper into the work.

Okay, follow-up on 1: Does your DM describe the campaign as a low-wealth or low-magic one? That issue might just be a mismatch in expectations ... I've met people who think that the "default" wealth-by-level guidelines were insanely extravagant...

Follow-up on 2: First, sorry to ask such an appalling question. I apologize if I came across as insulting -- I certainly didn't mean it that way! That said, I do see a note of entitlement in your reply: That the DM "should find a means" to incorporate running a magic shop into the game.

Frankly, if I were your DM, I'd say "No magic shops. It's too much of a hassle, and it takes too much time and energy away from the parts of the game I actually enjoy."

On a similar note, from what you've said about your DM, I doubt he's comfortable with trying to build a balanced set of rules for running a shop. It's a nifty idea to say "we'll run a magic shop and get more profit from selling our loot!", but it brings up a lot of business logistics where you have to wing it (or spend a lot of time coming up with detailed Papers and Paychecks rules ).

All that said, I do think it would be unreasonable to say "you get an extra 10%" from each item sold in the shop. Maybe make it a Profession: Shopkeeper/Magic Item Salesman check: if you roll a 15 on your Profession check, you get an extra 15% profit for the item. You'd need something to model how long it takes you to find a buyer ... my first idea would be to roll a die to see how many days or weeks it takes. Which die to use and whether it tells you the number of days or number of weeks is open to negotiation, with city size being a factor. Selling a +3 Shocking Burst sword in a hamlet just ain't gonna happen, but it might sell in under a week in a metropolis.

Mostly what you need is buy-in for the magic item shop from your DM, and for you both to agree on profit rules that a) give you more treasure than selling items at 50% and b) don't give you SO MUCH MORE treasure that you're too rich for him to manage the game.

If the DM feels like the game is spiraling out of control, you're going to have bigger problems than "how much extra should I be able to get by running a magic shop?"

Good luck working this all out with your DM Do you know if he uses any hobby-related websites like enworld?

1. It's high magic and high wealth. he's bluntly told us there are 20th Lvl casters who could make us the best gear if we had the wealth (why he's supposedly so worried?). Also, there are 9th Lvl casters (minimum) with +8 to save DCs (more?) casting Symbol of Sleep with spells to stop us from catching them as they work petty crime. That's 1000 GP of gems per casting. Yep.

2. I apologize if I was a bit off in my reply...because I was. Let's just say that after being kicked around the world for so long with emphasis on the DM's theater rather than letting us play...it's gotten to me. I feel no entitlement other than wanting to be able to enjoy the game doing what we the Players wish to do, or at the very least something I mutually wish to do with the DM. No, I don't say this just because of the shop, but as a general sum up of what the game has been like. Issues!

3. No, I don't think he uses many online resources due to the fact not only is his home computer shot, but his only other access is through work. Shame, because there are so many tools online which help the process along. I know he needs help with a lot of what he intends, but all the tools I could give him would be computer based, so...shame.

And now for the updates...

The DM pulled the plug on the shop, and has spearheaded us into a plot with the intention of ending in 4 months time (he said 3 months which would mean 6 sessions, but I don't believe that will happen considering circumstances). He doesn't really enjoy DMing considering the work that goes into it, which makes me wonder why he just doesn't stop entirely. However, he feels he needs to push to the end because he wants to give a proper finish to the game (even though he intended it to get to Lvl 20). Knowing this not only squashes my hope of ever having a prestigious shop, but having any investment in the game at all. It may be just be too much thinking and dread on my part, so I'll see what happens in the coming discussions and sessions.

In regards to logistics/rules of a shop...

1. I see no reason why it needs to be complicated
2. Why my DM wanted it to be complicated and therefore drop because he couldn't handle it
3. Why he needed to drop it if it's really not going to matter in 4 months time

I still insist it would be simple, and would be willing to try the method in my own DM time, but I believe I've already stated as such and being redundant. Till that time comes to pass I really don't know how such a system would work, but it's something to plan for, because one of the Players is considering the idea via his Leadership followers. Will let you all know the status of that when it comes down, because it sounds like very unexplored territory considering the responses I've gotten thus far.