Rules/Rolls for Running a Shop

[Jacob]

So I have a bit of an issue in a game run by my DM (who is also a player in my game). I have taken to the goal of buying my own shop in the dream that my Dwarf Wizard can one day build a stronghold of crafters and sorcery. However, this has created a lot of conflict, because I proposed we start selling the loot and magic items we don't need for a 100% profit instead of only getting 50% of what it's worth to another merchant.

In the original model of how one gets treasure in D&D, PCs get a large chunk of their GP from merchants buying what they don't need for 50% of what it's worth. Because we own a building to sell these extra items we took from combatants, we have the capacity to bypass the middleman.

Our DM has a problem with this because he believes it makes us overpowered. We would be getting gold way too fast, and he doesn't think he could keep up with that. If this happened, we would supposedly hate him because he would be throwing challenges at us x3 more powerful than a normal challenge. I think that's a load of rubbish, but it's the argument he's sticking with. I mean, really? Is the difference of 500 - 1000 GP (via +1 weapon as example) going to unbalance your game so much you need to throw even greater fights at us?

If all else, it would be really helpful to know some rule or rolls to make this work out, because there are known in the DMG on how a PC should sell their loot or what it would cost to run a business. DMG2 has some rules on how running a business is like, however it has nothing on how one goes about selling a +1 Longsword (far as I know).

He's presented a couple alternate methods of how he would like it to work, one overly complex and the other having him micromanage of how much gold we get (meaning he not only decides what treasure there is, but when we get the gold for it). However, in each instance we are still only getting 60 - 75% of the wealth of the item when sold (depending on what idea used), because we are "selling it" to the store/expenses/other related jargon.

It's frustrating because he's not even giving a base value of what expenses there are, even though you're taking 500 GP from a 2000 GP +1 weapon. Biggest gripe I had with it all was how my own crafted magic items were sold, because those would sell at 100%, seeing as they need to in order to make up for the XP loss. If these items can sell 100%, why can't the box of stuff in the back sell for their full value?

So there we are. I'm looking for a system that can make my plan work, and suggestions on how I can possibly work with a DM whom I am beginning to believe wants to control what we do and where we go (this time with some annoyance). I would like to think it would be something as simple as a 10 - 20% chance per week an item could be sold, but that's apparently too simple a solution for a game that needs to be complicated.

 

[PureGoldx58]

The DM is mostly right about the challenge thing. My current character is so very powerful at level 12 that I've trivialized CR 19s first round. All of this is because I got a HUGE windfall of money and spent it all on optimizing my gear. That and I am a druid/cleric gestalt.

However, limiting your players just because you feel like they will out play you isn't all that okay with me. There are costs to owning a business, Taxes, Property taxes, broken property, thievery, the local merchants undercutting you, not to mention the most important: Employees. Who is selling the items when you leave? Do you pay him/her/it...Yeah, That can get expensive when you only maybe sell something possibly when you return from an adventure.

Now for a suggestion, He comes up with a set prices for taxes and wages for your employee and you can go from there. Depending where your shop is it can be insane or modest.

There is always the chance that the person buying items from you haggled you down a bit too, high diplomacy check and what not.
Granted it won't happen every day mind you.

The gist of what I think is going on is that the DM is legitimately afraid that you will end up resenting him for throwing crazy high CRs against you because that is the only things that stand a chance.

 

[Axel]

Magic tax. Extortion and protection rackets. Bribery. Poll tax. Land tax. Building tax. Church tithes. Guild fees. Income tax.

There is a huge list of possible expenses for a typical medieval-fantasy businessman. I have only included a few (that I could think of in a minute) above.

Your DM is trying to wing it, without inventing an entire economic model for the region. He may or may not be interested in doing so, since it will take a lot of time and effort on his part. Estimates are just as valuable as micro-calculations...though that is the engineer in me speaking.

I would support his attempt to control your cash-flow with respect to time though. The number of people in any given fantasy kingdom that can afford (let alone actually use efficiently) a +3 Vorpal Sword can probably be counted on one hand. Actually selling it to them should be a proper RP encounter, not some book keeping exercise.

 

[anest1s]

Well, when you buy a +2 longsword you are sure it is a +2 longsword and not a +1 or a fake one, aren't you? This is because the shop that sells it has identified it...but how the shop identifies it? It goes to the mages guild and says to them hey, I want someone to identify my stuff. Now the mages guild isn't stupid. They want profit from that. This means they want every identify to be approved by them, casting out individual identifiers.

So the mages guild say "We will identify this for you, and we will give you insurance that it is what it is. With this insurance, your customer will know this thing is not fake, because we, and not some random mage approved it."
And the shop keepers...they have the option to either sell unidentified things, or pay the identify+some more for the insurance.

Now, when you are a shop keeper, you still have to buy stuff. And guess what...most of the time you cant be sure the +2 longsword that adventure sells you is actually a +2 longsword, unless you identify it before. If one adventure makes you identify his magic item, and it isn't what he thinks it is...then you just lost a cartload of gp for identifying nothing. Then again, this is way better than buying randomly. And even if you can cast the spell yourself....guess what...it isn't mages guild approved.

This means that an adventurer can't sell his loot at 100%. However he might be able to buy at 50%....with the risk of buying a cursed or a fake item. This makes sense, since the 50% isn't what a shopkeeper earns, but what is lost to make sure everything is ok.

At the same time a shopkeeper can buy at 50%+identify or 100%. On both cases he will win some profit because he bought and sold it. In the first case he will win some more, for his trouble passing the item around and making the papers. If he tries to fake them and gets caught, then the mages guild will be after him. If he sells without papers, he will have to sell at 50%.

At the end of the day, what he wins isn't 50% of the item, but his profession roll
However when you make your own items, even though you still have to pay something to the mages guild, you should win more. 60-75% looks ok...(if i recall correctly there was a feat like that in players guide to faerun, for selling things you make at 75%...?)

Anyway, you want a stronghold, and everyone wants less math...just say that everything the shop wins goes back to expand the shop. This way it gets bigger and bigger. Then one day you trade it for that stronghold/and you will easily find willing crafters and spellcasters to follow you, if you have a name as a good employer.

You can have shop-related quests (I hear thugs use to offer protection to shops, and what happens when employees start to disappear). Tell your DM to give half or less loot for quests like that, and instead add them to a pool along with the money the shop earns. This way you wont have to fight impossible encounters to match the extra gold, since the extra gold won't be free to be spend in gear. And when the pool has enough money, you just change it to a stronghold.

Well to tell the truth, your best bet is to find a abadoned stronghold and claim it for your own, filling it with everything you want after that.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Just because you're stocking your shop with your goods doesn't mean they sell instantly. The average commoer isn't going to be able to affort your +1 and above goodies, wands, scrolls, magic items and the like, and so you'll make your gold slower than if you walked into someone else's magic Pawn shop and said "How much can I get for selling all these things today?''
Your DM can set up a rate at which you can expect your items to be sold off, therefore resulting in you getting more gold per item, but at a gradual rate over time. Also, I don't know how often you'll get to return to your shop in between adventures, so you'll not have access to your money anytime as if you sold it immediately.
Finally, as already stated, the cost of paying employees to run the place while you are away and the upkeep costs in taxes, repairs, etc, will be a stedy drain on your gold. If your DM is willing to arrange a system that results in your party recieving 80% of the cost of an item, one item a week or so then you'll still get a reward for your creativity, but not end up overpowered.

 

[Jacob]

The question of when equipment/magic items sell has come round, and the suggestion I gave was every week a d10 would be rolled for each item. Should a 1 or 2 be rolled (10% - 20% chance), it sells. The only issue I really heard from the DM on that is he doesn't want to deal with any of the rolling. Seeing as I'm willing to do it for him, I don't know what the issue is.

His own idea is based around the strength of the item from minor, medium, and major (at least it did after suggestions I put forth). The shop would need a 5000 GP upgrade to sell Medium, and Major 10000. Aside from that, the math for selling time frame was as follows...

All items that you sell at your shop take X days to sell where X=the magical modifier+5, i.e: a +1 short sword sells in 6 days. A +1 flaming burst long sword sells in 8 days. Staves, potions, wands and scrolls sell with the following formula: X days where X= 1 day per thousand of cost.(minimum of 1 day)

Items of special quality, such as mithril or cold iron, add 2 sale days to any basic or masterwork item. For magical items, they double magical modifier in the sale formula. Example: a +1 chain shirt sells in 6 days(modifier(1) + 5 days). A +1 Mithril Chain shirt sells in 7 days(modifier(1)x2+5 days). lower level items don't make much of a difference, but unloading a +4 mithril chain shirt can take almost 3 weeks.

These formulas may be adjusted, but I figured that with the cost of such items, it would be needed to have the time for word to spread and for the buyer to come up with the money.

It could be noted the items sell too fast, which is why I'm keen on the idea of an item maybe selling at the end of the week. You could have 10 +1 weapons and get around 2000/4000 GP in return (depending on what the roll would be) after a week of bartering...or none.

On upkeep and expenses, the DMG2 method seemed like a good idea, though the DM has also brought on the idea of the shop being self sufficient, and maintain itself through Profession checks done by those inside the shop. This makes me happy, because the idea of micromanaging and creating more complexity seems more work than necessary. The need to Identify items and be on the up and up with officials does come to mind, though could this simply be a deducted 100 GP from each sold magic item.

More to come as the next session is later on today. Will bring forth suggestions and ideas, and see where it goes from there.

 

[Tovec]

I love what Axel said. Taxes and other unthought of expenses make sense. In a lot of settings there are powerful merchant guilds, legal restrictions (from king?) or power hungry wizards to limit people just selling (and sometimes buying) magic items.

Another idea to consider is that PCs sell gear to (willing) merchants at 50% because of supply and demand (along with the above). Mainly those merchants need product but aren't willing to pay full price.

If they are setting up a shop and selling to other adventurers for 100% implies they have the ability to do so. Other adventurers will have to come in and buy stuff AND product won't exactly move swiftly as the customer will need the gold to buy it.

Is this PC looking to retire? That's what an adventurer-shop owner probably is. A retired adventurer. Some of course do experiment and go out for supplies but traditional adventuring will go by the wayside.
These aren't bad things they're just different from regular gaming but can be very fun. I would love a player (or group) of mine to do this.

Hope this helps and is easy to follow.

 

[nijineko]

the simplest rule is to use the one that already exists.

Craft :: d20srd.org
Profession :: d20srd.org

you make half your check a week minus expenses. it does not matter if you are a specialty store selling magic items or not, that is the rule for running a shop. if you produce an item, it is a craft check, if you are selling a service (like spellcasting) it is a profession check.

if you want, you can re-fluff your check result by saying that instead of a check per week, you check per month to see how many magic items you sold. big ticket sales are going to be the sole purview of the dm, anyhow. same as random encounters. most people are only going to want or be able to afford is minor stuff.

if you are wanting to sell some generic used items with no backstory (that's a hint) as opposed to a brand spanking new bright, shiny, and sparkly at full price, then you will have to negotiate for it via rp. does the dm want to run a stock market game? likely not.

i'd call that a diplomacy or bluff check to up the price past 50% with the exact percentage based on your skill check if i wanted to keep it simple. i would also think that any such sales would be subject to the gp limit of the place you are trying to sell. if they can't sell you something above a certain price, then they certainly can't afford to buy something for that price either.

chances are, the only people you could sell full price to would be nobles, other adventurers, dragons (maybe), collectors, and outer-planar vendors.

now for a couple of examples from my personal rp experience:

i have managed to convince the dm to up the selling price by coming up with backstory for the item i'm selling. (yes, this item was in fact taken from the very tomb of acerarak himself, snatched from dissolving acids of a magical tapestry that turned into pile of green ooze upon touch!) [and we lost three characters to same said trap...]

i recall one character who had as part of his backstory that he literally came from a city thought lost to legend and myth. while his people were few, they still lived in the livable portions of said ruined city. he even had 10 coins of the original stamp of the realm on him listed in his equipment. I originally thought that if we ever wandered over to that part of the world, that they coins could serve as tokens of safe passage for my fellow party members. the rest of the party, in fact, no one else knew of this part of his origin story, just myself and the dm.

we once had cause to ask a sage to do some research on a particularly vexing riddle we could not figure out. this service did not come cheap. turns out that the sage was a collector of rare and unique commodities, specializing in the lost and forgotten. (i suspect that the dm had momentarily forgotten my backstory as this was a fair bit into the campaign by then...) after listening to the party discuss how to split up the sizable cost (doable, but would have severely eaten into our free cash reserves,) i stepped forward and "took out 1 coin" (note to dm, one of those ten...) whereupon the dm got this 'oh' look on his face... ^^ and presented said coin to the sage.

credit to the dm, he rp'ed the reaction of the sage upon being presented with an actual coin from a city thought completely lost to time. and knocked off a third of the asking price for the single coin. ah, the looks on the other characters faces... priceless.




oh, and don't forget leadership and aid another checks for your shop(s). ^^

 

[lordxaviar]

the simplest rule is to use the one that already exists.

would give xp but as always wont let me.. dont rem giving you any, but again this is great

im saving all this, might write into an article, for greyhawk journal, or kobold and will give credits. great stuff...

X

one of my female players has an interesting business idea... wishes to make a pit with green slime in it to act as a waste removal facility, channeling the sewers into it, etc. Im still working on the pros and cons, (it wouldnt be in place long before it over grew, was used for assassinations, etc... and the town demands its removal -but not where im going with this) I did this once long ago with a Gelationous cube, but that was for the basement of a mages tower and it was private not public...

What im getting at is they are looking at setting a steady source of income that would not fall under the normal busines model. comments welcome, just an interesting side note

 

[Umbran]

If these items can sell 100%, why can't the box of stuff in the back sell for their full value?

It can sell for full value, but you have expenses. Taxes and the like many have already mentioned, but there's one I think got missed.

Security.

You're going to have a building loaded with highly useful, highly expensive items? That sounds like a dungeon, but with fewer monsters - a soft target, easy pickin's as they say - some enterprising adventurers are going to wonder why they should go into the dungeon to find magic items, instead of breaking into your shop for them. You'll require 24/7 security, of the quality to defeat a party of your power or higher. And that's going to be a major overhead cost. And, so while you can sell it for full cost, you have overhead that'll bite into your profits.

As a GM, I'd be happy to just say it all comes out in the wash, and you net 50%, just like you were selling the items normally.

As a GM, I'm not going to let you have your cake and eat it too - if you want to get more money out of those magic items than normal, that means you have to put something into the venture - time (your character tends the shop rather than adventuring), risk (your profits are not assured, or you personally occasionally are threatened) or something along those lines.