D&D 5E Rulings, Not Rules vs Cool spell usage

[raleel]

I agree it wasn't always as open ended as folks state, but I think there is a fond memory of exploitability which implies open endedness.

Let us face it - there has been almost 40 years of D&D now. There have been lots of evolutionary changes, and a revolutionary change or two. Many of the folks playing (probably like most of the folks in this thread, undoubtedly KarinsDad and myself) are... of a certain age We've been playing a LONG time and have grown to value certain things and devalue others.

I do have to say - all these changes, I am happy for. The more I read it, the more I like 5e. Things that initially I was skeptical of (advantage/disadvantage for starters) I'm quite happy with. I like that they actually did pull things from 4e, even though it is often reviled, especially in my group. I like that they trimmed the bonus creep, even though I LOVE to optimize. I love that when me and the other hard core optimizer in our group go through and try to break it, we have a hard time doing it. I like the fact that they managed to find a role for everyone by re-looking at the wizard and saying "ok, how can we make you work and still make everyone else shine".

FYI - 5e flaming sphere is pretty explicit on the igniting stuff. I wish it stated it was a spongy ball, but whatever

The sphere ignites flammable objects not
being worn or carried, and it sheds bright light in a
20-foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet.

 

[77IM]

Can a fire elemental block a passage or can you move through him?

If characters can move through the sphere, it should be able to move through them too. The fact that it can not implies to me some amount of solidity.

 

[Celtavian]

Can a fire elemental block a passage or can you move through him?

If characters can move through the sphere, it should be able to move through them too. The fact that it can not implies to me some amount of solidity.

Not the same. The fire elemental is assumed to be animated by a physically tangible spirit that you cannot pass through. Same as an air elemental. That is why they can both manipulate physical objects and cause air and fire to strike like a fist.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Or a DM that is open to creative player interactions. Dms and players don't need to be told everything. I still remember the old school of D&D. We didn't need to be told everything a spell can do to decide what it was capable of doing.

OSR: Where rules are a feature, not a bug!

It's not that most DMs are capable of deciding what a spell can do, it's that the DM must decide what a spell can do. DMs are busy people who must, while running a game, prioritize what they will focus their attention on. A DM that stops play to figure out how a spell works or to analyze the various potential consequences of a ruling is not being well served by the rules.

Also, using snide grognardisms just make you sound like a doofus.

 

[Morrus]

OSR: Where rules are a feature, not a bug!

It's not that most DMs are capable of deciding what a spell can do, it's that the DM must decide what a spell can do. DMs are busy people who must, while running a game, prioritize what they will focus their attention on. A DM that stops play to figure out how a spell works or to analyze the various potential consequences of a ruling is not being well served by the rules.

Also, using snide grognardisms just make you sound like a doofus.

Profanities and insults in one post? Perhaps you should familiarise yourself again with the rules you agreed to.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/misc.php?do=showrules

 

[Joe Liker]

Flaming sphere is another case of lame 5E spell text. It completely ignores what happens if someone moves into or through the flaming sphere's space--a very common situation given the function of the spell.

I don't see what's lame about it. It ignores those things because those things are not part of the spell's effects or interactions. I see no reason to assume this was an oversight or mistake, or even sloppy editing.

The fact that it must be conjured into an unoccupied space, plus the word choice in the phrase "ram the sphere into a creature" implies at least semi-solidity. This is further supported by the fact that the sphere cannot move through creatures; it stops moving if you hit someone with it.

However, the 5e basic rules already allow you to move through a "nonhostile creature's space," and that's the most sensible position to take with this spell: You can move through its space, but not stop there. (As a nonsentient object, I don't think the sphere can reasonably be counted hostile, even if it's under the control of an enemy.)

Not that magic should mirror real life, but I'll point out that in the real world it's possible to run or leap through a small fire without being burned. It takes a certain amount of time for the cells in your body and the molecules in your clothing to absorb enough heat to ignite or be damaged. Apparently, the flaming sphere is not hot enough to transmit the necessary heat unless you pause (end your turn) near it. So I don't agree that common sense indicates damage. The author of this spell must have decided that damage in such a case would be unbalanced and unwarranted.

The sphere is obviously subject to gravity since it cannot float across empty space; it has to "jump." But there's no reason to believe it has enough weight to cause extra damage when dropped on someone. It if did, we have to assume that would be noted in the description.

Prone opponents are covered by the "ramming" rule. If you hit any opponent, standing or prone, the sphere must stop. You cannot "roll over" someone.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I get what you're saying, and it can work fine that way indeed.

But as a DM, I prefer to make coherent decisions (as I'm "setting the physics of the world") and as player, I like to know what I'm choosing when I choose something. In the current case, having flaming sphere be an obstacle or not is huge aspect of it!
- if it is, then I have a plethora of tactical options open to me (block corridors, stairs, create hard choke points for my allies, etc, etc.)
- can something be pushed in/on it for immediate additional damage : this game is played as a team, if I can set up a situation to offer a source of additional damage to my fellow players, that's something I want to know - if not (and I think I can) I'll be very disappointed when I use my limited resource to a much lesser impact than I had planned.

These are things I want to know now - when I choose the spell (both as a player and as a DM) because it impacts how I'll create and play my character as well as how I create and plan my encounters.

I understand that not every situation can be defined, but I chose this example because it is NOT a corner case, these are things I wondered as soon as I read the spell.

But still, thank you for your advice.

Ok, I'll answer a different way then this time.

Q: Is Flaming Sphere an obstacle?
A: Yes. It is a 5' diameter sphere of fire. It is magical fire, held together into a 5' diameter sphere by a weak, permeable mesh of magical force.

Q: Can Flaming Sphere be used by others by pushing things and creatures into it?
A: Yes. It is a semi-physical obstacle. If someone comes within 5' or closer to it, they are affected by the magical fire damage as per the book. Anyone who is within 10' of the center of the sphere may take damage, how that person got to be in that position is irrelevant.

Q: If it is an obstacle, what kind of power is required to push through?
A: Virtually none. Fire has almost no mass, so anything can 'push through'. It does, however, have a slight magical force that keeps it in sphere shape. Anything that weighs at least 1 pound can move through the sphere (walking, flying, being pushed, etc).

Q: When you ram it into something - does it engulf it, or does it "stop" when it hits?
A: It stops when it hits something, as per the rule statement in the spell description "If you ram the sphere into a creature, that creature must make a saving throw against the sphere's damage, and the sphere stops moving this turn".



^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[raleel]

Prone opponents are covered by the "ramming" rule. If you hit any opponent, standing or prone, the sphere must stop. You cannot "roll over" someone.

Technically, I think it can probably "roll over" a prone person, and perhaps even gnomes, halflings, and some dwarves. The book states -

When you move the sphere, you can direct it over barriers up to 5 feet tall and jump it across pits up to 10 feet wide.

Now, it's kind of up to the DM if a person constitutes a barrier, I suppose, but I'd be inclined over prone people at least, and standing would move it, I think. Strictly into adjudication territory at this point, though.

I agree with your other points entirely

 

[Joe Liker]

Technically, I think it can probably "roll over" a prone person, and perhaps even gnomes, halflings, and some dwarves. The book states -



Now, it's kind of up to the DM if a person constitutes a barrier, I suppose, but I'd be inclined over prone people at least, and standing would move it, I think. Strictly into adjudication territory at this point, though.

I agree with your other points entirely

Fair enough, but then you are clearly not "ramming" the person, so no damage is dealt.

 

[Henrix]

I've found myself thinking in several occasions that the spells are little too matter of fact.

I'd prefer more of a description of what is going on, and then a short paragraph on the technicalities.

And that goes for the monsters as well. I still miss the long 2e descriptions. (Even if some of them were long for the sake of being long.)