D&D 4E Rumor control: Lucca 4e seminar report inaccuracies

[Najo]

It is a niche hobby. If you want to sell to me you should at least be familiar with the game. It is laziness to buy a product and _hope_ it sells without any idea of why it should sell to any given segment of the customer base. Other businesses actually pay attention to their market, pay attention to sales numbers, read the descriptions of the product, and do what they can to make informed decisions. The businesses that cannot do this basic effort often go out of business.

I have owned my own game store for over 13 years now, and I have been involved in the business for over 18 years. We pay attention to the industry and understand what it takes to be a great game store. To stay on top of the hobby games industry - magic, warhammer, D&D alone is alot of work, plus the numerous games from niche publishers, let alone training for staff, plus then you got to wade through all of the 3rd party publishers?

We aren't even talking about that much effort. There are well run game stores out there. But there are a lot of game stores where the owner started as a gamer that loves games and is hoping that enthusiasm is enough to keep her in business. I am talking about a lack of basic things - greeting the customer that walks in the door, watching your cash flow, researching your market and trying to sell to that market. Owning any business requires a lot of hard work. Game stores are no exception. Being able to judge good product and bad product is part of that process.

Most game stores are ran by hobbyists who don't take the time to learn how to really run a business. This is their down fall. But even more reason to make seperating product easier. How is this any different than the computer and video game industry (other than dollars) where you have logos such as intel inside, microsoft official approved software and countless other marks of quality control?

You are saying it isn't the retailers fault that they buy crummy product and put it on the shelves? I am saying that the retailers have an even higher motivation to avoid buying crummy products than most consumers. If we buy one bad book, we avoid buying another one like it. If a retailer buys one box of bad books, she might only sell one book from that box.

How does that retailer check out the product before they buy it? What helps guide the retailer to good choices when you have a number of small in house products with no track history saying take a chance on me? You are basically saying that the retailer should order everything and then reqad through it, then order more based upon their discovery. Why not give the retailer a tool to make this easier. How about retailers who can't afford to make mistakes like that or ones without the product knowledge to judge. At least a mark of these guys took the extra steps to make sure their product is better helps a bit.

All of which do nothing to address quality of product. During the roll out of 3.X, it would seem that even WotC didn't have such a kit for internal use. I wish I could remember the link, but I distinctly remember a discussion between the designers where one designer created a new class and didn't know that the original designers had a formula for saving throws. At the time, it wasn't documented so that everyone at WotC could find that information.

They have been building these resources from the beginning. You can follow the commentary of the people who have worked on 3.0 and 3.5. These documents exist under NDAs and they are impossible to get to.

Maybe the 4E team has those resources, maybe they don't. Such documentation seems standard in some industries and backgrounds, I know. But that documentation takes time away from design and development.

Those documents speed up design and development. It keeps designers from rehashing the obvious or having to be mindful of common design considerations.

Let's assume that the documentation does exist, and that WotC would be willing to part with it for a price that most third party publishers might pay. The documentation would still be constantly changing. Game design has solid mechanical principles behind it, especially for a system such as D20. But game design is much more an art. At some point, you still look at a new idea and say - I think this will work without being too abusable or too overpowered, but I still could be wrong.

Quality is still not assured, even with a documented methodology.

Of course the document would change and update. Game design is as much about the mathematics and balance as it is an art, whether you see that or not. Many games have been artistically beautiful both visually and mechanically, but were broken as hell. Once a game is broken and play not balanced properly, the players typically drop the game and it dies. You can go through countless dead hobby games and their reason for dying first and foremost is poor game design and broken rules.

WotC would be insane to offer some of that in our litigious society.

If they are letting people play in their sandbox, then they already have opened this door.

See Tenkar's statements about sales numbers. Pen and paper RPGs are less than pennies on the dollar in comparison. We are still a small, niche hobby. WotC doesn't have the resources to even try this type of model out. For third parties, it would make the publishing process too onerous. Effectively, it would cut out the D20 logo branding at all. All WotC is doing is cutting out the effort to achieve the same results.

WOTC already is trying this model out. In fact, they stand to make more money. The current state of the industry is OGL, D20 and official WOTC products. OGL = everything from Mongoose to Piazo. D20 is GGR, GMG, and a handful of others plus Piazo would fit here content wise. If they get rid of the d20 logo, we are back to everything in one bucket like before. The very glut all of you have complained about when 3.0 started that hurt the D20 logo will happen again.

Oh, and no offense intended, but Tenkar is making those numbers up. My previous post has more accurate industry numbers, and for 2006 at that.

Why discount the idea that Paizo is staffed with experienced game designers? As an alternative, look at Mike Mearls. He started as a freelancer who showed he was creative, responsible, and could make products that work. He worked his way up the rungs, gaining experience until he was able to get a job at WotC. Other companies design product with 'tight mechanics' and did so without any design kit in place. Sure, it would be a great thing to have! Don't think that for a moment I am discounting the idea that a kit would be nice to have. I'm just saying it wouldn't assure quality and wouldn't create any benefit for WotC to provide it.

Piazo has experienced designers who worked on Dragon and Dungeon. They had access to the design docs from 3.5 I would bet. Mike Mearls was the understudy of Monte Cook, again Monte has access at least to everything from 3.0 and he is such a good game designer and contected that he could get 3.5 docs or at least retroactively build them. Mike then would benefit from that. Mike didn't come out of a vacuum you know.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Mike didn't come out of a vacuum you know.

Mike didn't come out of a vacuum. He came out of several years of prolific and grueling freelance work-- pre-Monte, pre-WoTC.

Or do you suppose Monte picked Mike's name out of a hat and said, "This is the young padawan with whom I will share my Top Secret Design Documents!"

If the quality of Mike Mearls' work is attributable to a Top Secret Design Document and not simply to Mike's brains, talent, enthusiasm, and work ethic, I'll eat my hat.

 

[tenkar]

Oh, and no offense intended, but Tenkar is making those numbers up. My previous post has more accurate industry numbers, and for 2006 at that.

Didn't make the numbers up... tho' the internet net source I found them on might have, who knows? The link: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0411b&L=dnd-l&D=1&P=26404

and the relevant text:

Here is the information I found from one source, which cites sales numbers
from the 2003 State of the Gaming Industry issue of Comics & Game Retailers
Magazine:

2003 Gaming Industry Overall Sales $215-450M (no change from last year)
Breakdown: 15% RPGs, 45% Collectible Card Games, 40% Miniatures Games

Within RPG Sales ($32-67M, which is an 18% drop on the year):
WotC: 43% market share (15% average monthly drop in sales from 2002), >80%
is D&D, 10% Star Wars, and <10% d20 Modern

 

[tenkar]

Most of your argument is just for argument sake. A designer kit being offered to 3rd party would improve a 3rd party publishers ability to make better material. WOTC is likely not wanting to share those documents as it makes their products better than the 3rd party publishers.

Isn't this whole thread an argument for arguments sake? WotC has been pretty clear in stating the D20 license is dead. I'm sure they did their market research and consumer surveys, and between the suits, the bean counters and the lawyers D20 got wrapped in a carpet and tossed in a roadside ditch in the middle of nowhere.

As for not wanting to share a designer kit with 3rd party publishers because they like to have an advantage over third party publishers... I'm sure you are totally correct, and I agree with WotC not releasing those documents. Paizo, Necro, Green Ronin, Goodman and a few others have consistently shown that they don't need such a kit.

Edit: As an aside a design kit does not ensure quality. Garbage in gives garbage out, even with a helpful guide. It would help those publishers that have great ideas but trouble with actually working out the details.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Isn't this whole thread an argument for arguments sake?

Yes, this horse is beyond dead.

 

[Najo]

Mike didn't come out of a vacuum. He came out of several years of prolific and grueling freelance work-- pre-Monte, pre-WoTC.

Or do you suppose Monte picked Mike's name out of a hat and said, "This is the young padawan with whom I will share my Top Secret Design Documents!"

If the quality of Mike Mearls' work is attributable to a Top Secret Design Document and not simply to Mike's brains, talent, enthusiasm, and work ethic, I'll eat my hat.

I never said that Mike didn't have talent. But you can see the effect working with Monte had on him. It tonned him out and gave him the edge needed to get where he is now. I never said it is all Top Secret Design Documents. But you add Mike's brains, talent, enthusiasm, work ethic and the documents and you got one hell of a designer for D&D.

Please don't twist my words into something I didn't say.

 

[Najo]

Didn't make the numbers up... tho' the internet net source I found them on might have, who knows? The link: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0411b&L=dnd-l&D=1&P=26404

and the relevant text:

Here is the information I found from one source, which cites sales numbers
from the 2003 State of the Gaming Industry issue of Comics & Game Retailers
Magazine:

2003 Gaming Industry Overall Sales $215-450M (no change from last year)
Breakdown: 15% RPGs, 45% Collectible Card Games, 40% Miniatures Games

Within RPG Sales ($32-67M, which is an 18% drop on the year):
WotC: 43% market share (15% average monthly drop in sales from 2002), >80%
is D&D, 10% Star Wars, and <10% d20 Modern

Ok, so your numbers are from one guy's post in another thread. How is that any different. Not everything you read online is fact. Your just quoting a random poster.

Edit: lol, sorry I missed where you said perhaps they made those numbers up. Still, that is my point, you need to do more thorough research before posting sales figures and saying they are fact.

 

[Najo]

Isn't this whole thread an argument for arguments sake? WotC has been pretty clear in stating the D20 license is dead. I'm sure they did their market research and consumer surveys, and between the suits, the bean counters and the lawyers D20 got wrapped in a carpet and tossed in a roadside ditch in the middle of nowhere.

As for not wanting to share a designer kit with 3rd party publishers because they like to have an advantage over third party publishers... I'm sure you are totally correct, and I agree with WotC not releasing those documents. Paizo, Necro, Green Ronin, Goodman and a few others have consistently shown that they don't need such a kit.

Edit: As an aside a design kit does not ensure quality. Garbage in gives garbage out, even with a helpful guide. It would help those publishers that have great ideas but trouble with actually working out the details.

Look, I have no issues with you. My main point is that design documents can take talented people and make them even better. By charging for a design kit, you will weed out a large number of poor quality companies. When the whole thing is free, you get riff raff that shouldn't be there. By charging, they have to think about putting their money on the line even more.

WOTC not releasing those docuements in some form means they do not truely want an OGL. They want the appearance of a OGL. It allows competition to be there, but with WOTC always loooking more pro than any one else. Design Docs are like a operators manual for a computer or a car. Your talent still makes you a better computer tech or driver or mechanic or whatever, but the guy with the documents can get answers faster, can do it right first without trial and error. He has a better base to work from is all. No where does that mean he has more talent than the other guy, he just has better tools to work with.

For proof of what I am saying, go and read 3.0 Tome and Blood's section on spell design or read through all of the Designer comments in the Rules Compendium and then try to argue that 3rd party publishers couldn't use guides like that to help them. WOTC has that sort of material on hand, 100% guartanteed.

 

[Najo]

Yes, this horse is beyond dead.

Considering I am fighting for guys like you, and that WOTC needs to keep the d20 liscense in some form, I would disagree. The main point is a designer kit from WOTC helpful to 3rd parties or not, and are they willing to pay for it? Not, a design kit makes you a better designer and gives you magical game design talent. I never said ANYTHING like that. You still need to have good talent, be able to write, know the game system and produce under a deadline and thne be supported with the same materials the WOTC designers have.

Look at it this way. Why do the WOTC designers have those documents? Why are they kept under NDA? If they are the ones who make the books, then why do they need that sort of support?

The reason is those documents help the designers keep things in mind, they present helpful insights when buidling rules, and help avoid easy to forget about mistakes or problem areas the developers discover.

Now, if WOTC needs them, why wouldn't an outsider who doesn't have the benefit of working with the WOTC designers, who doesn't have the insight of seeing the SRD material as early as WOTC does and who doesn't get to work on a RPG team like that, why wouldn't that outsider (the 3rd party publisher) not want access to the design documents that WOTC uses so they can ensure they polished their work as best they can.

This doesn't hurt their creativity, it doesn't hurt professionalism (only improves it), it doesn't mean they failed (if anything it means they are more official). I would think the professional 3rd parties would love to work with support material like that.

 

[tenkar]

Ok, so your numbers are from one guy's post in another thread. How is that any different. Not everything you read online is fact. Your just quoting a random poster.

Edit: lol, sorry I missed where you said perhaps they made those numbers up. Still, that is my point, you need to do more thorough research before posting sales figures and saying they are fact.

Hey, least I quoted my poor source.. a poor source that claimed to be quoting a trade magazine...

In any case, you numbers show just how small our hobby is.

Now, back to the topic at hand: What is the benefit to WotC to release their design documents to 3rd party publishers? (I know it would benefit 3rd party publishers greatly... I concede that easily)

When the pie is a small one I'm sure you want to keep the majority to yourself without handing your competitors the tools to grab a larger slice. They already allow third parties use of the SRD via the OGL. How does giving away the secret formula benefit WotC?