Runestaff and UMD?
- Thread starter Greenfield
- Start date
nogray
Adventurer
Rogues and Runestaffs
Could a rogue (or other class lacking spells) emulate the spell slot to use a runestaff?
While at first, I thought, "Not only 'no,' but 'Hell, no,'" I am now less than certain. The reason for my doubt comes from the example for Use Magic Device in the Player's Handbook under the "Emulate a Class Feature" heading.
That example has Lidda emulating the turn undead feature to have a magic chalice turn regular water into holy water. The text there sure looks like a cleric with that item would be spending a use of turn undead, but Lidda doesn't have any to use. Yet, in the example, she seems to be able to use the item and get the holy water.
My question, then, is whether or not the spell slot used by the runestaff is similar in nature to the positive energy (turn undead attempt) used by the example magic chalice. If not, how are they different?
The way I am now leaning, though I could easily be convinced otherwise, is that a UMD user would have to emulate all the lacking features, just as they would for a regular scroll or whatnot. That is, they would have to emulate the daily "attune to runestaff" check, then for each use, they would make three checks:
The biggest argument I can see against this interpretation is one of balance, though I am open to other arguments both for and against this usage of Runestaffs via UMD. Following is an example of how I would play, as I currently view the interaction.
[sblock="Extended Example"]Gimble the 11th level bard has an 18 charisma, a 14 intelligence, a UMD bonus of +18, and a runestaff of evocation. Lidda the 13th level rogue has only a 14 charisma, but the same UMD bonus; everything else is basically the same, just for argument's sake. I'll assume Lidda makes the UMD check to attune the runestaff (DC 20, I think, as there is no level requirement. DC21 if you think there is).
The runestaff of evocation has the following spells (sorted by level on the sorcerer/wizard chart):
Could a rogue (or other class lacking spells) emulate the spell slot to use a runestaff?
While at first, I thought, "Not only 'no,' but 'Hell, no,'" I am now less than certain. The reason for my doubt comes from the example for Use Magic Device in the Player's Handbook under the "Emulate a Class Feature" heading.
That example has Lidda emulating the turn undead feature to have a magic chalice turn regular water into holy water. The text there sure looks like a cleric with that item would be spending a use of turn undead, but Lidda doesn't have any to use. Yet, in the example, she seems to be able to use the item and get the holy water.
My question, then, is whether or not the spell slot used by the runestaff is similar in nature to the positive energy (turn undead attempt) used by the example magic chalice. If not, how are they different?
The way I am now leaning, though I could easily be convinced otherwise, is that a UMD user would have to emulate all the lacking features, just as they would for a regular scroll or whatnot. That is, they would have to emulate the daily "attune to runestaff" check, then for each use, they would make three checks:
- the ability score (minimum for spell level if they don't already meet it),
- the caster level (like under the "Use a Scroll" UMD heading; it mentions this can also be used for "other spell completion items," and I am using this to emulate "this spell is on my class list"), and
- the spell slot (per Emulate Class Feature).
The biggest argument I can see against this interpretation is one of balance, though I am open to other arguments both for and against this usage of Runestaffs via UMD. Following is an example of how I would play, as I currently view the interaction.
[sblock="Extended Example"]Gimble the 11th level bard has an 18 charisma, a 14 intelligence, a UMD bonus of +18, and a runestaff of evocation. Lidda the 13th level rogue has only a 14 charisma, but the same UMD bonus; everything else is basically the same, just for argument's sake. I'll assume Lidda makes the UMD check to attune the runestaff (DC 20, I think, as there is no level requirement. DC21 if you think there is).
The runestaff of evocation has the following spells (sorted by level on the sorcerer/wizard chart):
Magic Missile: Lidda makes two checks. These are the Use a Scroll check (caster level 1 for MM means DC 21) and Spell Slot. She gets one magic missile. Gimble has two options. He has to make one check (DC 21; like use a scroll) and either (a) spend one of his spell slots or (b) emulate it with another DC 21 check. Thanks to his caster level 11, he gets the full five missiles.
Shatter: Lidda's DCs are 23, and two checks are needed. Save DC is based on intelligence, and caster level is 3. Gimble has more options. He can either just spend a level 2 slot (shatter being a bard spell and all) or emulate the slot with a single DC 24 UMD check. Either gets him an 11th caster level Shatter with save DC based on charisma. If Gimble wanted to us his intelligence bonus, instead, he could make a DC 23 check for the wizard version.
Fireball: Both Lidda and Gimble have to emulate the spell-being-on-their-list with a DC 25 (wizard) or DC 26 (sorcerer) UMD check. Lidda can make the Spell Slot UMD check at 25, while Gimble can spend a 3rd level slot or emulate one with a DC 25 (and use his int) or 26 (and use his cha) UMD check.
Ice Storm: Similar to Fireball, but DCs are 27 and 28. Gimble still has his choice of using his own slots or emulating them.
Wall of Force: Lidda now lacks an ability score high enough to use this spell. She'll need to get a score of at least 15, making the DC for that UMD check 30. She'll make two more checks, as above, with a DC of 29. Her caster level (assuming she makes all three checks) will be 9. Gimble has a choice or two. He can go for the wizard version, in which case he needs three checks, just like Lidda (one DC 30, two DC 29); or he can go for the sorcerer version, in which case he needs two checks at DC 30. (He needs to emulate the intelligence, but he has the actual charisma.)
Chain Lightning: Like Wall of Force, but with higher DCs. The interesting thing here is that Gimble might get a higher caster level (12) than his actual character level (11) if he goes for the sorcerer version. DCs are 31 for the ability score (Lidda and Gimble going for wizard version; Gimble doesn't need to emulate Charisma if he chooses that route) and either two more at 31 (for the wizard CL 11) or two at 32 (for the sorcerer version with a CL and spell slot at 12).
[/sblock]Shatter: Lidda's DCs are 23, and two checks are needed. Save DC is based on intelligence, and caster level is 3. Gimble has more options. He can either just spend a level 2 slot (shatter being a bard spell and all) or emulate the slot with a single DC 24 UMD check. Either gets him an 11th caster level Shatter with save DC based on charisma. If Gimble wanted to us his intelligence bonus, instead, he could make a DC 23 check for the wizard version.
Fireball: Both Lidda and Gimble have to emulate the spell-being-on-their-list with a DC 25 (wizard) or DC 26 (sorcerer) UMD check. Lidda can make the Spell Slot UMD check at 25, while Gimble can spend a 3rd level slot or emulate one with a DC 25 (and use his int) or 26 (and use his cha) UMD check.
Ice Storm: Similar to Fireball, but DCs are 27 and 28. Gimble still has his choice of using his own slots or emulating them.
Wall of Force: Lidda now lacks an ability score high enough to use this spell. She'll need to get a score of at least 15, making the DC for that UMD check 30. She'll make two more checks, as above, with a DC of 29. Her caster level (assuming she makes all three checks) will be 9. Gimble has a choice or two. He can go for the wizard version, in which case he needs three checks, just like Lidda (one DC 30, two DC 29); or he can go for the sorcerer version, in which case he needs two checks at DC 30. (He needs to emulate the intelligence, but he has the actual charisma.)
Chain Lightning: Like Wall of Force, but with higher DCs. The interesting thing here is that Gimble might get a higher caster level (12) than his actual character level (11) if he goes for the sorcerer version. DCs are 31 for the ability score (Lidda and Gimble going for wizard version; Gimble doesn't need to emulate Charisma if he chooses that route) and either two more at 31 (for the wizard CL 11) or two at 32 (for the sorcerer version with a CL and spell slot at 12).
Greenfield
Adventurer
I see a distinction between emulating a class ability and using that class ability.
I don't care what the Rogue rolls on their UMD, they can't actually channel positive energy (or negative energy for that matter). Similarly, they may be able to fool a Wand or Staff by emulating a class with spell casting ability, but they don't actually have that ability no matter how well they roll.
For such a maneuver to work on a Runestaff, they'd essentially have to trick the item into "thinking" that they had actually supplied the magical energy, and that isn't part of Use Magical Device, there is no "Target DC" that can be rolled to pull that one off.
A Cleric might be able to fool the thing into thinking they were a Wizard with the right stats, and *might* even be able to fool it into accepting a Divine spell slot in place of an Arcane one (I'd probably need some convincing that that was possible), but that's about as far as it could stretch.
Now if you want the Rogue to be able to power a Runestaff, could they burn a Scroll? That operates exactly as if you'd cast the spell yourself, so I could see using that as a way to supply the Arcane spell power, but now you're activating two magical devices in the same round, so it's still very questionable.
In any case, the Runestaff isn't a Spell Trigger or Spell Completion item, so provisions for operating such things under UMD probably won't apply.
I don't care what the Rogue rolls on their UMD, they can't actually channel positive energy (or negative energy for that matter). Similarly, they may be able to fool a Wand or Staff by emulating a class with spell casting ability, but they don't actually have that ability no matter how well they roll.
For such a maneuver to work on a Runestaff, they'd essentially have to trick the item into "thinking" that they had actually supplied the magical energy, and that isn't part of Use Magical Device, there is no "Target DC" that can be rolled to pull that one off.
A Cleric might be able to fool the thing into thinking they were a Wizard with the right stats, and *might* even be able to fool it into accepting a Divine spell slot in place of an Arcane one (I'd probably need some convincing that that was possible), but that's about as far as it could stretch.
Now if you want the Rogue to be able to power a Runestaff, could they burn a Scroll? That operates exactly as if you'd cast the spell yourself, so I could see using that as a way to supply the Arcane spell power, but now you're activating two magical devices in the same round, so it's still very questionable.
In any case, the Runestaff isn't a Spell Trigger or Spell Completion item, so provisions for operating such things under UMD probably won't apply.
