Running a dragon vs a high level party

[NewJeffCT]

If its big enough, why not have it drop large stones on the party from a great height? Its a nice variant tactic that can be used from almost any range. Seagulls are smart enough to do this, so I'm pretty sure a dragon could grasp the concept.

yes, the dragon could do that all day... but, it doesn't seem like the actions of a powerful dragon to fight from a distance all day. However, I could certainly see it doing that once or twice.

The party psion and sorcerer both have long-range powers/spells that could hit the dragon from 400 feet, plus 40/level, or 1000 feet away. I would assume the dragon gets serious penalties at trying to drop stones from 1,200 feet up - can you even see medium sized creatures from that height?

 

[NewJeffCT]

Can the players run away? Because while any encounter 4 CRs over their level can be deadly dragons are already powerful for their CR. This is likely to be a TPK scenario.

Just out of fairness I'd recommend allowing a Knowledge: Arcane check for them to realize that a dragon of this size and age is well out of their league.

Your blue dragon will automatically have the ability to cast hallucinatory terrain, so I'd recommend putting some pits throughout the floor too small for a dragon to fall into which are covered by the illusion of flat level ground.

Its destroy water ability can remove the potions from the group (will save 29, per potion to survive).

Hide is a class skill, so the dragon will try to get a surprise attack off it can. It may not have sneak attack but a surprise round gives it a great opportunity to use its breath weapon.

I don't think it's a TPK for a large party - as I had explained later in the thread, there will be seven PCs of level 15, plus an ally of equivalent level, plus a level 10 cohort type.

 

[MichaelK]

I don't think it's a TPK for a large party - as I had explained later in the thread, there will be seven PCs of level 15, plus an ally of equivalent level, plus a level 10 cohort type.

Ah, eight 15th level guys. Well, that'll certainly make a difference.

It'll still be a hard encounter, but sounds like it will be an really exciting adventure that they'll remember for a long time. Sounds like fun.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

yes, the dragon could do that all day... but, it doesn't seem like the actions of a powerful dragon to fight from a distance all day. However, I could certainly see it doing that once or twice.

The party psion and sorcerer both have long-range powers/spells that could hit the dragon from 400 feet, plus 40/level, or 1000 feet away. I would assume the dragon gets serious penalties at trying to drop stones from 1,200 feet up - can you even see medium sized creatures from that height?

Well, a red-tailed hawk- common to my area- can spot a mouse from 100 feet in the air, and other species will hunt their prey from 300-500 feet above and more. Among the top of the list is the peregrine, which may divebomb prey from as high as 1000 feet, reaching speeds of around 180mph while doing so.

So if a dragon has anything resembling a raptor's visual acuity, spotting targets from that height shouldn't prove to be that difficult.

As for penalties for doing so, I might vary that from draco to draco. One who loves the tactic and has the resources at hand to do so would be quite good at it. One who lives in an area devoid of suitable missiles might never even think of the tactic, so if it tried it, might be quite awful- at least as bad as using the improvised weapon rules.

Besides, its not the dragon's "Win the game" tactic to just pummel the party with rocks. Its actually a vertical version of "divide et imperium"- divide and conquer. By bombarding the party with boulders, the dragon forces the party to either seek cover or bring the fight to it (and not every 15th level PC has access to aerial travel). Close with it, and you'll be subject to its breath weapon and spells (which may be the equal of the party's spellcasters'). Close further, and you'll be in melee with it...in the air...where it can use all of its claws AND its bite AND its tail on you at will.

And don't underestimate that tail- remember the scene in the 1st Alien movie? While transfixing one character with its toothy grin, it worked its tail around behind the target, impaling him from the rear.

In the air, a large dragon could do that easily.

In one encounter I ran some years ago, a party on a flying ship was attacked by a HUUUUGE Blue dragon who grappled the ship from below. The party ran forward to assault the head, only to be attacked from all directions, as first one claw then another would strike from below the party's horizon. Then the tail did a massive sweep of the deck, sending many NPCs plummeting to their deaths...and almost one PC as well. He was saved by his Ring of Feather Falling, but he was effectively removed from the fight, and the party had to go looking for him later.

(BTW, the above scenario was inspired by an altercation between the 2 cats I owned at the time. One was sitting on a perch, and the other was hanging on to the perch upside down and swatting up. Sadly, yes, catnip was involved.)

 

[NewJeffCT]

Well, a red-tailed hawk- common to my area- can spot a mouse from 100 feet in the air, and other species will hunt their prey from 300-500 feet above and more. Among the top of the list is the peregrine, which may divebomb prey from as high as 1000 feet, reaching speeds of around 180mph while doing so.

So if a dragon has anything resembling a raptor's visual acuity, spotting targets from that height shouldn't prove to be that difficult.

Thanks - good points. I had mentioned being able to see the targets because it was sort of the opposite a few weeks ago in my game: the PCs had mentioned flying 1000 feet above the oncoming evil horde and targeting the lead bad guys with a deluge of fireballs and other long range spells. I had said that while they'd have no problem seeing the horde in its entirety, picking out a human sized target from 1000 feet in the air would be very difficult for humans and halflings.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

See, sure. But that'd suffer an awful lot of range increment penalties, I'd think. Even a composite longbow only has a range increment of 110 ft. A dropped rock would probably be more like thrown weapon increments, 10-30 ft. Even giving it sling range increment, 50 ft, 1000 ft would be a full 20 increments away, the maximum you can fire a projectile weapon. And I think a dropped rock should be treated like a thrown weapon in terms of range increments anyway... Bottom line: it should be impossible or nearly impossible to accurately hit anything doing that. It could take feats and such to get a better chance if you want it to actually be trained at dropping rocks on foes. Or just stick closer to the ground and do it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Again, this is something seagulls do with great accuracy...albeit with motionless targets.

A dragon, with its superior intellect, would probably use this tactic when it would be sure its intended targets would have limited ability to evade (cliffside path? down in a gorge?)...with fairly sizeable rocks (AE?). It wouldn't so much be aiming at the party as aiming at a spot.

IOW, a dragon would use this tactic in such a way as to minimize its miss chances.

Its first such attack would have the best chance of success, especially if the dragon attacks out of the sun, uses an illusion to conceal its approach (or the path of the falling boulder), or some kind of misdirection- anything that draws attention to IT rather than to the stone.

But even if subsequent attacks are of low hit probability, what are the odds that the party is just going to sit there? NONE. This is aerial artillery as covering fire. Its a morale buster. Nobody is going to just sit there and get pummeled by 100lb+ boulders dropped from 1000' up. This means the dragon is dictating the pace of battle, it is controlling the battlespace. It is making the party react to it, rather than it reacting to party tactics.

In addition, just like hawks and fighter pilots, a dragon might use multiple attack attitudes. Instead of dropping a rock from on high, he might spot his foes from on high, then dive to a much lower altitude and pull out of the dive, greatly improving his chances of hitting...while presenting his foes with a small(er), incredibly fast moving target.

Or he could dive to gain speed, but level out around treetop height and do a strafing run...dropping the boulder like a bowling ball (Indiana Jones, anyone?) at the start of the run, finishing with its breath weapon or a spell. Perhaps it even flies low enough to kick up the dirt with the downdraft from its wings to blind its foes (yes, I've been watching a lot of Dogfights on the Military History channel, esp. the ones about Mig Alley) or sweep its tail through their ranks to trip them or send them sprawling.

Remember- the dragon is an apex predator like almost no other. Its (usually) high intellect commands resources approximate to a D&D party, and was shaped by being a predator that operates in a fully 3D environment.

Besides, RIs were designed with roughly human-normal equivalent eyesight in mind, and AFAIK, no race is described as having the kind of visual acuity we're talking about. If you look at top marksmen- those whose eyesight allows them to see things at 50 feet that most could only see at 20- distance as an object to accuracy begins to diminish in importance as things like wind and the Earth's curvature begin to matter more.

And a hawk's distance vision is much better than even a top sniper's.

A dragon's eyesight? Only the DM knows for sure how good it really is in his campaign.

 

[humble minion]

How does the xorvintaal template from MM5 stack up? I am leery about the loss of spellcasting support (no buff spells such as greater mirror image), but it does make the dragon more linear and easier to run because it has fewer options. It also make the dragon more melee-oriented rather than some sort of artillery caster.

An interesting option is to use the cr14-16 range version, then tack on martial adept lvs. Having an array of boosts and counters at its disposal can help if you are going for a more melee-oriented bent. 1-2 lvs of swordsage would give it maneuvers such as moment of alacrity, pouncing charge and quicksilver motion.

Flavourwise I'm a big fan of the Xorvintaal template, but I think it's a little bit underpowered for its CR. Losing the spellcasting is a big hit, but losing spell resistance as well really hurts. Sure you can get it back by taking Awaken Spell Resistance, but that's a feat you could be using on other stuff. I really like the Twist of Fate ability cos it gives the dragon a bunch of new options as immediate actions (the action economy really hurts a lone dragon against a group of 4-6 PCs), Dragon Toxin is really nasty, and Alternate Form is great for a dragon's strategic options, though not so much if the dragon is only going to be used as a big nasty fight.

A Xorvintaal dragon's CR assumes that the dragon has a couple of exarchs activated, and it can summon them to its side if it needs them. You probably should prepare for that eventuality - exarchs of CR about 6 lower than the dragon seems about right, and won't blow out the EL too badly. You can get your magical support here, thought you'll lose the ability to exploit some of the nifty personal dragon spells like the breath weapon energy modification ones if you do it that way. A ring of spell storing can help, but you'll need to work out who the dragon got to cast that Greater Dispelling Breath into its ring in the first place if your players/PCs are of an analytical mindset...

I've statted up a CR21 Xorvintaal dragon and two of his four exarchs (more to come later) at paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Older Products / Dungeon Magazine / Savage Tide Adventure Path / List of customised/modified/additional NPCs, monsters etc

 

[Runestar]

Well, depending on how optimized your casters are with regards to overcoming sr, losing it may not be a big deal if the wizards are going to punch right through it without blinking an eye (say they initiate combat with assay resistance).

I am not sure if you should be allowed to get sr back via a feat after losing it to the xorvintaal template. I suppose it would be legit considering the order of application though.

Personally, it seems the template is useful mainly for mid-cr dragons, where the loss of spellcasting is not a very big deal (and their low caster lv means that mage armour/shield just get dispeled in the 1st round of combat anyways).

 

[NewJeffCT]

Well, depending on how optimized your casters are with regards to overcoming sr, losing it may not be a big deal if the wizards are going to punch right through it without blinking an eye (say they initiate combat with assay resistance).

I am not sure if you should be allowed to get sr back via a feat after losing it to the xorvintaal template. I suppose it would be legit considering the order of application though.

Personally, it seems the template is useful mainly for mid-cr dragons, where the loss of spellcasting is not a very big deal (and their low caster lv means that mage armour/shield just get dispeled in the 1st round of combat anyways).

The psion has his Crystal Shard spell - ranged touch attack, no SR, would do 15d6 damage at 15th level. The sorcerer might be more of a problem in overcoming SR - magic missile, scorching ray, fireball, lightning bolt, etc... as would the cleric (Fire Storm still is subjected to SR)... she might be better off casting Holy Aura on the party first, or summoning a Greater Planar Ally if they know the dragon is coming.