D&D 5E Running D&D 5e for Levels 10+

[bgbarcus]

What more do you want? I just ran a game the other day for a group of level 16 PCs and because of time constraints only had a handful of fights (I usually try to do 6-8 encounters between long rests). Because it was a turning-point in the campaign it was more difficult than usual. I had near TPKs, using a variety of monsters.

I'd like to see more of what you described. Mostly more of the tactics. My group is a 50/50 mix of people who enjoy tactics and those who want an arena style slug fest. I want ideas that let all of them have fun.

"Use better tactics" is partially helpful. Some of my players are at least equal to me as tacticians, a couple of better than me at using terrain. That's great because they challenge me - it is also a problem because there are six of them vs. one of me, so I'm always interested in seeing how other DMs use monsters to push players to their limits.

I have no trouble making modifying monsters to make them more powerful. Tinkering with stats is always a fun way to confuse the players who also DM their own games think they know the monsters. But it is still hard to surprise them. Last session I did that by having an Archmage use Arcane Eye to target spells based on sight. None of the players had considered that a possibility and everyone enjoyed the surprise even though it was in the form of a Meteor Swarm that scared the crap out of them.

Clever use of things like your orc warlords giving advantage is the sort of thing I'm looking for. I've used orc war chiefs before but I don't think I've used them at distance where they could avoid melee attacks while still using their war cry. Now that you've described it, it seems obvious. But it didn't occur to me so reading your tactics was helpful.

The generic how-to ideas (i.e., take advantage of cover and environment) are less interesting to me because I do that. But other DMs may not have thought of it so it is also good to include in this thread.

Some things are good ideas for many groups but not useful to me. For example, I have two players who are adamantly opposed to bringing flanking into the game. I realize I could invoke Rule Zero, but I don't like that sort of heavy handed play. I respect that one-third of my players are opposed to using certain optional rules even if I think they are being narrow-minded. If imposing the rule makes the game less fun for them that's enough for me.

Transformations. This one is a little trickier (and to do justice would take more time than I have) but instead of making monsters big bags of HP, have them change at certain points. At a 2/3 of their HP they lose some AC but start blindly flailing getting more attacks at a bonus. At 1/3 their HP their acidic/demonic blood is spraying everywhere causing automatic damage (or constitution save for half). When they die they explode.

This sounds interesting. I'd enjoy seeing more details of how you have used this when you have time to elaborate.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with the capn on this one. While hit and run tactics can work it doesn’t feel dragony.

And role play wise dragons are made up to be exceptionally arrogant and often aggressive. So even role play says they shouldn’t be afraid to get in to the thick of things and throw down. Good old Smaug was as arrogant as they come...and for good reason!

 

[hawkeyefan]

So, the topic at hand is how to challenge a party without using monsters that are way above the level of the party. Nobody's arguing that an adult red dragon isn't impressive or scary against a level 5 party.

That’s not what I said, nor is it the topic at hand. The OP:

About two years ago I ran 5E for about six months, and found the game challenging to DM, given the
collective power of the six-seven pcs, who were eighth level.

I am planning on running a 10th level game with five players - and the problem seems like it will be much worse. Given the natural abilities of the group (which include a barbarian, paladin, wizard, sorcerer, and cleric) the group will be all but immune to fear, charming, etc. Given their collective abilities, they can pretty easily dish out a few hundred points of damage in a round.

For those of you who have run the game at that level, have you found this issue problematic? If so, how have you handled it?

Thanks!

Very specifically not asking “what are critocisms of the game at high level?” But actually asking if we have experienced this type of play and how to address it. Laying blame on the designers for “not doing their job” does not help with The Liverpuncher’s question.

Just because we can try to mitigate some of the problems with high level games through judicious content generation and throwing the CR guidelines out the window, that doesn't mean the designers didn't drop the ball. They definitely did. They don't get a free pass, just because we can do some extra work to make up for their shortcomings.

Again, this may be a valid criticism. I don’t agree with it, but I can understand the viewpoint. I’d gladly discuss it with people. But when someone asks for ways to address concerns in high level play, telling that person that the designers dropped the ball, and not offering anything else, is useless.

There is an issue with creating super-powerful monsters, though, which is where they fit into the world. I shouldn't need every ancient wyrm to be imbued with the Power Cosmic before it can burn down one lakeside town. But if I just give everything better stats, and pretend that it's the same thing, then I'm not even playing in that world anymore. Why did I buy the Monster Manual if I have to change all of the numbers in order for the monsters to be usable? (The previous edition of Exalted had a similar problem, where difficulties would theoretically range from 1-5, but starting characters could average 10+ successes on every check; as the ST, you're forced into the dilemma of either letting the PCs stomp over the entire setting with no opposition, or making everyone else equally impossibly competent in order to provide a slight challenge.)

And unless I want to completely throw the XP rules out the window along with the CR guidelines, the first super-dragon that the party does manage to defeat will give them an entire level or more. You don't want to know how much XP the level 17 party in my game gained when they beat that Archmage-Lich-AncientBlackDragon-DoubleKraken.

None of that seems concerning to me. Place in the world? If you want a dragon that’s an invulnerable engine of destruction that can lay waste to nations, then adjust the existing stats until you achieve what you want. Or use narration to help bolster its abilities. Or any number of other options that I listed.

And then when it’s all said and done, just give the PCs the same amount of XP as you planned to all along. If a Dragon is a CR 16 creature, and your idea of a CR 16 creature is along the lines of what Smaug did, and a CR 16 creature grants X amount of XP...then what’s the issue? You can morph and adjust XP amounts and all of that, too.

Decide what you want the monster to be, adjust stats or abilities to achieve that, award the amount of XP that you see fit. Simple.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I agree with the capn on this one. While hit and run tactics can work it doesn’t feel dragony.

And role play wise dragons are made up to be exceptionally arrogant and often aggressive. So even role play says they shouldn’t be afraid to get in to the thick of things and throw down. Good old Smaug was as arrogant as they come...and for good reason!

Ah yes, I remember well the story of Smaug, who landed in the middle of an army to kill everyone with tooth and claw, with no hit and run or strafing attacks at all....

 

[Hussar]

Sorry what?

If a monster is listed as CR 15 but performs more like CR 10, why shouldn't we ask the designers to amp it up?

Of all the reasons I've heard, "it would change the CR" is one I don't get. CRs are not exact science anyway.

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See, that's not the issue. It's that your laser beam focused combat players are performing more like level 15 at 10th level. And then you're insisting that the game change to accommodate your specific problems instead of either reining in your players or simply treating the players as being higher level than they are.

IOW, you are trying to fix the wrong end of the game.
[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] - Smaug wasn't worried because no one in the setting (other than maybe Gandalf) was higher than 5th level.

 

[Eric V]

See, that's not the issue. It's that your laser beam focused combat players are performing more like level 15 at 10th level. And then you're insisting that the game change to accommodate your specific problems instead of either reining in your players or simply treating the players as being higher level than they are.

IOW, you are trying to fix the wrong end of the game.

Maybe, but LOTS of posters here are fond of saying how if a DM can't deal with GWM and SS they're not good DMs, so which end should DMs be looking at?

Are ASIs and Feats -really- equivalent? What's happening that his PCs are "overperforming?" What's the measuring stick?

 

[Oofta]

I'd like to see more of what you described. Mostly more of the tactics. My group is a 50/50 mix of people who enjoy tactics and those who want an arena style slug fest. I want ideas that let all of them have fun.

"Use better tactics" is partially helpful. Some of my players are at least equal to me as tacticians, a couple of better than me at using terrain. That's great because they challenge me - it is also a problem because there are six of them vs. one of me, so I'm always interested in seeing how other DMs use monsters to push players to their limits.

I have no trouble making modifying monsters to make them more powerful. Tinkering with stats is always a fun way to confuse the players who also DM their own games think they know the monsters. But it is still hard to surprise them. Last session I did that by having an Archmage use Arcane Eye to target spells based on sight. None of the players had considered that a possibility and everyone enjoyed the surprise even though it was in the form of a Meteor Swarm that scared the crap out of them.

Clever use of things like your orc warlords giving advantage is the sort of thing I'm looking for. I've used orc war chiefs before but I don't think I've used them at distance where they could avoid melee attacks while still using their war cry. Now that you've described it, it seems obvious. But it didn't occur to me so reading your tactics was helpful.

The generic how-to ideas (i.e., take advantage of cover and environment) are less interesting to me because I do that. But other DMs may not have thought of it so it is also good to include in this thread.

Some things are good ideas for many groups but not useful to me. For example, I have two players who are adamantly opposed to bringing flanking into the game. I realize I could invoke Rule Zero, but I don't like that sort of heavy handed play. I respect that one-third of my players are opposed to using certain optional rules even if I think they are being narrow-minded. If imposing the rule makes the game less fun for them that's enough for me.



This sounds interesting. I'd enjoy seeing more details of how you have used this when you have time to elaborate.

The transformations are based on a series of articles by the Angry DM here. It's a bit long-winded but I still use the basic idea now and then.

When I mention flanking, I don't mean flanking to get advantage I meant flanking from a tactical perspective and attacking from behind.

For example in my sample fight, I had the McGuffin group of orcs to pull them into an ambush, then the war chiefs came out (they were behind total cover). Last but not least, my custom blessed orc did his daily power doing some damage and knocking people prone before charging in and attacking people in the rear (focusing on a prone character).

So I used several tactics. A distraction, a surprise giving advantage, attacking the people who like to hide in the back. I used a bunch of lower level monsters but then gave them advantage so they could hit. Like I said, I mix and match a lot.

But I also don't hesitate to throw more monsters than suggested by the CR guidelines. Not every time, and if the PCs stomp on my encounters now and then good on them.

End of the day there is no "secret sauce" for high level fights. Varied fights, varied challenges, some easy encounters, some hard, and remember that the goal is to have fun.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'd love to see the thread get back to the original issue of how to challenge high level parties. I've got six 15th level characters with feats and a good amount of magic. I have the next few weeks of play figured out but it would be fun to see how other DM's challenge that sort of party.

I suggest getting inspiration from the d20 (3rd edition) version of the monsters you use.

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[CapnZapp]

IOW, you are trying to fix the wrong end of the game.

If what you're suggesting is to nerf or remove the class abilities, spells and feats the PHB hands out, then... No thanks.

I really feel that an Advanced Monster Manual is a way simpler fix than essentially rebuilding the whole game.

You might be right, or not. It might be that the MM isn't too weak, and instead the PHB is too strong. But it is still much easier to fix things on the monster end.


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[The Crimson Binome]

That’s not what I said, nor is it the topic at hand.

It's what the topic was, currently, after six pages of posts.

And then when it’s all said and done, just give the PCs the same amount of XP as you planned to all along. If a Dragon is a CR 16 creature, and your idea of a CR 16 creature is along the lines of what Smaug did, and a CR 16 creature grants X amount of XP...then what’s the issue? You can morph and adjust XP amounts and all of that, too.

The rules of the game exist to tell us how to translate narrative structures into game mechanics. That translation is why I bought the books. That translation is what my players have signed up to play.

If your advice for handling high-level campaigns is to ignore everything about challenge ratings and experience awards, then that's not terribly useful advice to anyone who actually wants to play they game they bought. I'm not saying that it's bad advice, necessarily, but it is tantamount to giving up on using the rules in the book.