D&D 5E Running D&D 5e for Levels 10+

[Oofta]

I’m going to have to side with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] on this one. In my experience running ToD and SKT i’ve not had trouble hitting the PCs with legendary creatures. The problem is the creatures just don’t have the longevity to ride out the fight to a point where the players are getting nervous about their characters. In the final battle with Iymrith in SKT I had to fudge her an extra 200 hp so she could at least keep some dignity!

I don’t know how much damage the PCs can deliver per round but going forward I’m definitely going to give monsters max hp and legendary creatures maybe 2x max hp. I’ll feel free to fudge as the combat goes and hopefully I’ll find some number that works.

Is your group more than 4 players? Do they use standard ability score generation? Do they use feats? Do they have magic items? Are they experienced players? Do their character builds work well together? Do they have more than 1 long rest per 6-8 encounters?

Any combination of the above is going to affect what you need to throw at PCs to challenge them. Unlike a computer game, the developers don't have control over your group or your effectiveness as a DM at implementing smart tactics for the monsters.

This thread has devolved ... do you have any suggestions about how to scale up encounters to get to the difficulty level you seek? I gave a page or so of suggestions several pages back, is there anything other than adding HP to make encounters tougher?

 

[Oofta]

Hmm... Stirge swarms that have fed on big reds for years???

Ancient red as an eco-system.

I like that! Do they do fire damage while attached? Explode when killed? Hmmm ... I think my players are going to hate fire stirges after my next big fight against a red dragon.

 

[5ekyu]

I like that! Do they do fire damage while attached? Explode when killed? Hmmm ... I think my players are going to hate fire stirges after my next big fight against a red dragon.

Basically my answers would be yes... Anything thematic and offbeat enough to throw holy crap moments is fair game. Especially when it all ties together.

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[Sacrosanct]

I like that! Do they do fire damage while attached? Explode when killed? Hmmm ... I think my players are going to hate fire stirges after my next big fight against a red dragon.

Maybe use the fire mephit stat block as a quick and easy representation of such a creature?

 

[5ekyu]

Hmmm... Albino stories, cold, white dragon munchers, advantage on stralth in snowy icy terrain.

See dragon roused in anger and a swarm of swarms of stirges fly off her enraged looking like those gigantic bat swarms at dusk... Only white and frosty and drawn to that juicy warm buffet below.

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[The Crimson Binome]

No way. [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] already addressed this point, but not all 7th level parties are equal. They're likely comparable, but depending on player choice and experience the difference from one 7th level party to the next could be wildly different.

Not really. Numerically speaking, most 7th level parties are probably pretty close. This edition isn't terribly susceptible to optimization, at least compared to either of the two preceding editions. The book tells you how you should assign your stats, and even if you just follow that advice, you're going to be pretty solid.

There's plenty of room to escalate. Numbers keep going. Plus, isn't that the request that's being made? Don't you guys want the monsters to be made tougher? The caveat is you want the designers to make them tougher rather than the DM.

Numbers have meaning within the system. The point of a system is in how the mechanics reflect the reality of the setting. That's what the game is, which distinguishes it from other games on the market.

A roc has Strength 28, and that's supposed to let it pick up an elephants. The Tarrasque has Strength 30, and it's depicted as knocking down buildings. If I need a monster to have Strength 50 in order to challenge the party, then that means it should be able to juggle mountains, or else I'm not playing in this system anymore. As the DM, I don't want to put the party up against a mountain-juggling cosmic monstrosity as anything other than the grand finale of the campaign. That is the issue, is that the mechanics required to challenge a basic high-level party would not be sustainable within the setting.

 

[Oofta]

Ooh! Swarms of smoke and magma mephits.

 

[5ekyu]

Not really. Numerically speaking, most 7th level parties are probably pretty close. This edition isn't terribly susceptible to optimization, at least compared to either of the two preceding editions. The book tells you how you should assign your stats, and even if you just follow that advice, you're going to be pretty solid.

Numbers have meaning within the system. The point of a system is in how the mechanics reflect the reality of the setting. That's what the game is, which distinguishes it from other games on the market.

A roc has Strength 28, and that's supposed to let it pick up an elephants. The Tarrasque has Strength 30, and it's depicted as knocking down buildings. If I need a monster to have Strength 50 in order to challenge the party, then that means it should be able to juggle mountains, or else I'm not playing in this system anymore. As the DM, I don't want to put the party up against a mountain-juggling cosmic monstrosity as anything other than the grand finale of the campaign. That is the issue, is that the mechanics required to challenge a basic high-level party would not be sustainable within the setting.

Why would you need strength 50... Did you give pcs stuff to get to 49?

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[Sacrosanct]

Ooh! Swarms of smoke and magma mephits.

Really though, and to the point of the OP, minions are a great way to make encounters really challenging, especially with bounded accuracy. And for creatures like dragons in the examples that have been used, it tells you right in their description that they have minions for spies, soldiers, etc. I think higher level monsters work best when part of the larger adventure, rather than a one off just plopped down into an arena.

I mean, they are tough, and many are smart. They should have a spy network or minions to allow it to prepare for a high level party. It should use things within its power to try to push the battle in its favor by using the environment or time constraints to force the party into battles they don’t want. They are evil, so they are not constrained by morality, which means they have no compunction in forcing PCs to either save innocents, or let them die and fight the monster instead.

 

[5ekyu]

White Dragon rip off of classic Vader response to failure... White stirge dessicated remains frozen in ice nearby....

"Ssssurely you do not want to dissssapoint me like my lasssst knight of ssssssecretssss did, do you?"

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