D&D 5E Running D&D 5e for Levels 10+

[Oofta]

Whatever his faults, he certainly provides more useful input than you do.

I've given many options on other threads. I just get tired of the same whiny argument without constructive advice on how to fix it.

What has he posted on this thread?

Basically the game doesn't even try to achieve balance after, say, level 12.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Or, we could expect more from the designers.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

How is that constructive?

But you're right. I should have posted some basic suggestions:

• Use better tactics. Take advantage of cover and environment. For example small foes can use small tunnels with tiny openings that are too small for medium size creatures to go through.
• Send waves. At higher levels wizards can do a lot of damage, so don't send all the foes at once.
• Flank. Related to sending in waves, have weaker foes run in from the obvious direction while the real foes come around the back
• Illusion. That BBEG? Well it's an illusion. The real BBEG is hiding around the corner. Note if a target isn't legitimate for a spell, I don't make the caster expend a spell slot. So if they try to banish the illusion it doesn't work but they also don't use the spell slot.
• Number of combats between rests. It really does help to have 6-8 encounters with only 1-2 short rests. I use the alternate rules where a short rest is overnight and a long rest is a week or more because it works better for my campaign pacing. But if you have multiple fights, the wizard is going to hold off on that meteor storm until it's really effective. We also frequently have multiple game sessions without a long rest - people do need to take notes of where the left off.
• Obstacles/goals other than killing stuff. Too often it's go there kill the bad guy. What if you have to instead save the prince? What if your could survive but the prince is squishy? How do you protect him.
• Use custom monsters. Follow the guide in the DMG to make new monsters, they're frequently much tougher than what's listed in the MM. Or depending on budget look at 3rd party books like Kobold Press's Tome of Monsters.

Apologies for not making suggestions earlier, I'd post more but I'm running late and turkey is waiting!

 

[happyhermit]

...
How is that constructive?
...

Have to disagree, have taken the advice to heart and am now applying it to all aspects of my life, I now no longer look to prevent getting into problematic situations and when I find myself in one I simply "Expect more from designers" until everything is resolved. Engine won't start because it's -40 and it wasn't plugged in? Just relax, sit back and "expect more from designers" maybe they will come out and fix it for me, if not spring will roll around soon enough and it will start fine. Changed my life, true story, thanks Capn.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

You're right that the Cap hasn't provided that much to this thread, but just like you did in your initial dismissal of him, I was mainly thinking about his contribution in other threads.

And thanks for your suggestions. I don't see any of them addressing the particular problems of high level parties stomping the oppositio. Cap'n'Zapp does highlight that solo monsters are chanceless against high level parties, and Stalker comes with suggestions. Your suggestions are pretty generic and could apply to a first level party as well. How would you improve 5E monsters by mechanics, other than beefing hp?

Edit: and bon appetit!

 

[Eric V]

Solos are definitely problematic unless combined with some kind of special terrain. In my Al-Qadim campaign, they(6 PCs of level 7) encountered an Efreet who challenged them to a bragging contest (this is from Steve Kurtz's A Dozen and One Adventures box set). Things went poorly, and combat broke out.

Now, according to the CR system, this should have been an "easy" challenge, especially since they were at full resources and hp. Having said that, since they were out in the open desert, when the Efreet lost about half his hp, he started to kite them...and they had virtually no answer for it. The open air with a hugely mobile opponent made the easy into a deadly.

It was also very unfun for those who couldn't even reasonably attack it. :/

Thus, I would exercise caution by trying to "overcorrect" through terrain; things should still be fun.

I think most "Solos" need to have some trusted leftenants with them at all times, or a horde of minions as well. They still feel Solo-ish...I guess. It's just that Legendary Actions don't quite cut it for action economy. As well, while you don't want to hear "just increase the hp," increasing hp is necessary to ensure they stick around longer.

-E

 

[ClaytonCross]

I think there are tiers of this. Its true that balance is more difficult at higher levels. That said, even if you take a regular old "balanced" party of the core roles (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) and go into high level fights you can quickly see that the standard CR encounters don't cut the mustard. The monsters generally just don't do enough damage, and can't take enough damage, to remain a threat. Further, part of the problem is that abilities just scale up...but to challenge high level parties you need more "epic" abilities to really do the challenge justice. Dragons are probably the worst offender here. High CR dragons are just the same as lower dragons but with higher numbers. They don't get anything new and unique to deal with the power of high level threats.

One example from 4e that I used for high level games.
1) Low levels: I used the standard "ongoing damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, take 10 fire damage again next round. Rinse and repeat. This was a normal 4e ability.
2) Mid Levels: I introduced "escalating damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, take 20 fire damage next round. The round after that, take 30.
3) High level: I introduced "crisis damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, IMMEDIATELY take 20 fire damage. Continue making saves until you pass or your dead.

Its not just higher damage, but the frequency increased to match the power of high level opponents. And let me tell you, that crisis damage scared my high level players!

This also has a lot to do with GM tactics. I see a lot of people complain about the Dragon CR being too high but I have also seen people walking the dragon around on the ground vs a bunch of melee Player characters. It's flying creature that has a massive AOE breath attack. If the dragon is getting the crap beat out of it it is defiantly smart enough to go airborne and rain down from above. Also, if a dragon can fly it has at least 10ft for both the bite and tail attack, and Ancient dragons of 15ft so they can fly above enemies with a 5ft melee range and attack them without being attacked back. With the 15ft of ancient dragons unless it is fighting all range and casters it SHOULD be doing just that out of reach of pole-arms. Even if that is one target not doing damage it makes the fight harder and that player has to work to become useful. Also, add to that players with magic swords and melee abilities having to use mundane crossbows for a lot less damage if they are unprepared.

If your party is all arcane archers and spell casters with long range spells you also need to remember that the Dragon has a power full AoE and moves 60ft to 80ft in a turn where players generally move about 30ft. That mobility is important to a dragon. Your casters group up then they get devastating AoE breath on character that generally have less health than there melee counter parts remembering that the dragons breath changes range from 30 -> 60 -> 90 means with dragons mobility and lack of attacks of opportunity in the air they are almost always going to have a good shot for their breath attack just worse if they group together. If they spread apart 35/65/95 ft then they are reducing their ranged attack attack options due to spell range limitations. Even spells with 120ft range can have problems against the ancient dragons because if your 95ft on the other side of your ally from the dragon and it is 15 ft from him your range has to be in a 10ft ring any clever movement or obstacles with line of sight at that range are going to be a problem since at that range the movement to over come angles of cover is too great for the player. This requires the GM to put the dragon in field of battle large enough for a creature of this size to fight as it is designed instead of on the ground in the dragons broom closet like I usually see. Of course if the dragon is "trapped" or cornered on favorable terrain then that was the players taking head of the danger and one of the dragons greatest strengths and trying to limit it. That is not a reflection of the dragons CR rating but the players tactics to deal with such a creature at that point.

Some people will say that's a cheep tactic... but I would argue that's exactly the tactic a very smart very old dragons fighting unfair fights of 6 to 1 would, should, and likely have used in order to live to be that old and that since of helplessness and despair that melee characters get when fighting dragons is part of the terror of dragons. It's also something players should expect from one of the most notorious airborne enemies in the game of Dungeons and Dragons. If your playing a creature against one of its greatest strengths then claiming its under powered for its CR ... its not the designers fault the CR system is not working out for you. I have seen battle after battle of Dragons sitting still and taking a beating from 6 sides with multiple 5ft melee attackers in the group and then called an easy kill its ridiculous.

If you saw the critical roll fight with the ancient black dragon (Umbrasyl) you saw more of the the sitting dragon, then the fight with the white dragon (Vorugal) was done much better and it was a bit of a terror. In those fights I think Matt has some landing due to personalty of the dragons though its not the best example because he defiantly modified them for his players and to make them unique, I do think it the most public example and does illustrated big differences in difficulty from fighting dragons in tight spaces and open spaces. Which are the result of GM and/or player tactics not something that could be part of selecting their CR.

As a side note if a GM wanted to put players against a dragon early he could put players in a tight room and let them beat on it and if he wanted to make it harder later he could have them fight the same dragon out side in a ravine with oh 15ft foot walls that would help break line of sight but still leave players on the edges in dragon melee range when it was landed on the sides as well as forcing them to group up.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

This also has a lot to do with GM tactics. I see a lot of people complain about the Dragon CR being too high but I have also seen people walking the dragon around on the ground vs a bunch of melee Player characters. It's flying creature that has a massive AOE breath attack.

A dragon in flight is a sitting duck. Between their terrible armor class and pathetic flight speed, an ancient dragon would have a tough time in a ranged fight against one ranged PC of the same level, let alone one ranged PC with a support healer (and any other spellcasters in the party).

Dragons are far too slow to pull off strafing runs in this edition, because they'll eat a full ranged attack every time. The optimal strategy is to trap the party in a small room, so they can land all of their legendary attacks on the same target, because otherwise their chance of dropping anyone approaches nil.

 

[Oofta]

You're right that the Cap hasn't provided that much to this thread, but just like you did in your initial dismissal of him, I was mainly thinking about his contribution in other threads.

And thanks for your suggestions. I don't see any of them addressing the particular problems of high level parties stomping the oppositio. Cap'n'Zapp does highlight that solo monsters are chanceless against high level parties, and Stalker comes with suggestions. Your suggestions are pretty generic and could apply to a first level party as well. How would you improve 5E monsters by mechanics, other than beefing hp?

Edit: and bon appetit!

Specifically for higher levels, things that I do are (I mix and match the below a lot)

• Monsters have advantage on a regular basis. I justify it multiple ways, or just secretly roll it.
• Do more damage. Not just more damage, but more types of damage. Particularly useful for my wife's half-orc character that has resistance to weapon damage. The BBEG has a sword made of lightning.
• Attack more. Bonus actions or just multiple attacks.
• Attacks that do more than damage. Taking people out of the fight is boring, but restraining them with a giant tentacle that is slowly crushing them? Go for it.
• Transformations. This one is a little trickier (and to do justice would take more time than I have) but instead of making monsters big bags of HP, have them change at certain points. At a 2/3 of their HP they lose some AC but start blindly flailing getting more attacks at a bonus. At 1/3 their HP their acidic/demonic blood is spraying everywhere causing automatic damage (or constitution save for half). When they die they explode.
• Spiritual allies. Instead of giving a monster minions that can be killed, they send out spiritual allies (inspired by a cleric's spiritual weapon) that can attack as a bonus action
• Counterspell. This one can be annoying if overused, but give the enemy casters counterspell. If you really want to be mean, the enemy caster is a sorcerer that can cast without verbal or somatic so their counter can't be countered.
• Ranged attacks. Almost all creatures have effective range attacks or can get to people that are flying away.
• Different saves. I make up a lot of monsters. So sometimes it's going to be strength saves, sometimes it's going to be intelligence and so on. I don't pick on individuals, but I do try to vary what I'm targeting.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head, after way too much food and family today. Everything else is more generic stuff, but I still find it useful at higher levels. One thing you won't find on my list is increasing HP. I do it once in a blue moon but I can probably count the times on one hand and have fingers left over.

 

[cmad1977]

I run it ‘out of the box’ and my GWM/SS having group claims I’m ‘trying to kill them’


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sacrosanct]

About two years ago I ran 5E for about six months, and found the game challenging to DM, given the
collective power of the six-seven pcs, who were eighth level.

I am planning on running a 10th level game with five players - and the problem seems like it will be much worse. Given the natural abilities of the group (which include a barbarian, paladin, wizard, sorcerer, and cleric) the group will be all but immune to fear, charming, etc. Given their collective abilities, they can pretty easily dish out a few hundred points of damage in a round.

For those of you who have run the game at that level, have you found this issue problematic? If so, how have you handled it?

Thanks!

I have not found it problematic at all. But I think that is largely due to play style. One thing I’ve observed in threads about this topic, there are two primary play styles that folks seem to fall into: role playing opponents, and roll playing opponents.

Before people get all worked up, neither is objectively better; it’s personal preference. What I mean by this, is I consider myself in the role playing camp. How an encounter plays out is significantly impacted by how the opponent would normally act, both during the encounter, and before the encounter ever happens. Will they plan for the party? Use the environment to their advantage? A lot of this is dictated by the flavor text and intelligence of the opponent, which IMO is just as importance as any other stat. A group of devious goblins can far out punch their CR. A group of wolves may constantly harass the party, looking for weakness, and making rests nearly impossible because as soon as the party tries, they do hit and run attacks. You wanna see players who feel challenged? Watch what happens when they can’t recharge their abilities whenever they want.

The other style, I’ve seen, is dependent on actual defined abilities, and combat is played tactically as if they are game pieces on a board. Again, nothing wrong with this, and it comes to preference. The problem with that is if you’re ignoring the flavor text and environment (which while not a mechanic, is a rule to show you how to play the monster), you’re leaving some of the challenge off the table and may need to make changes to make up for that. For mundane creatures, give them a superiority dice or two like the battlemaster. For others, give some magical limited use abilities. Or something like legendary resistance, only instead of saving throws, they can turn a hit into a miss.

 

[ClaytonCross]

A dragon in flight is a sitting duck. Between their terrible armor class and pathetic flight speed, an ancient dragon would have a tough time in a ranged fight against one ranged PC of the same level, let alone one ranged PC with a support healer (and any other spellcasters in the party).

Dragons are far too slow to pull off strafing runs in this edition, because they'll eat a full ranged attack every time. The optimal strategy is to trap the party in a small room, so they can land all of their legendary attacks on the same target, because otherwise their chance of dropping anyone approaches nil.

So if your talking 3 level 20 adventurers they should be fighting an ancient dragon with an AC 22 and a flight speed of 80ft (160ft if they dash away for a turn) that is nether low AC or slow... unless your decking your players out to be gods of war on quittage brooms at which point its not the Dragons CR thats off balance here my friend. Just saying...

That said if your building your party out as strait killing machines and gods of war... then sure they are killing higher than there level. That's not a Dragon CR issue its a power game style and as such you will have to alter combat above CR to challenge them. The CR is a generally good base but it can't cover all parties.

What are their stats AC, to hit, HP, classes, level ? if you don't mind me asking.... just so I can see your comparison.