D&D 5E Running High Level 5E is more fun than I thought it would be.

[DND_Reborn]

I haven't run high level 5ed, so can't speak from personal experience. But my guess is that it is a combination of three factors:

1) Greater complexity of game play - and more to keep track of.
2) A general preference for 'classic" D&D--levels 1-10ish, especially the "sweet spot" of tier 2 (5-10), if only because of familiarity.
3) Unwillingness/inability to shift paradigms to "superheroic" campaigns.

The first two are pretty self-explanatory, but the latter might be where there is some wiggle room, and where WotC could help out with some kind of higher level guidebook and adventures--meaning, a supplement with recommendations on how to run high level campaigns, different adventure seeds, campaign structures and, of course, actually adventures.

I think part of the problem, which relates to 2 and 3, is that higher level campaigns require a paradigm shift. You can still play classic adventuring styles with more powerful monsters and bigger piles of loot, but why not explore different styles of campaign? World-shaking events, artifacts, leading nations, exploring the planes, etc.

I think 3-10 will always be the sweet-spot for most, but I see no reason why--especially with the "flattened curve" of 5E--the higher levels can't also offer tons of great play experiences, especially if the DM and players are interested in exploring different types of campaigns. And as I said, WotC could help the situation out by offering more high level campaigns--even ones that start at 11th level, rather than most ending in the 11-15 range.

Well, having played through and into the Immortals Set (can't really get much more powerful than god), changing paradigms is pretty much needed.

I agree it would be great of WotC to develop tier 4 and epic level adventures, to support those levels of play. A lot of DMs do avoid them IMO because the challenging the power of PCs at that point make is difficult.

For myself anyway, I like playing characters that are ordinary people who do extraordinary things, but frankly have no desire to do superhero things anymore. I've been to Hell, the Abyss, and saved the world from apocalypses, created artifacts, destroyed artifacts, and conquered nations. Of course, that makes it easier for me if I want to run such an adventure...

 

[jmartkdr2]

Skimming through this thread makes me wonder if the common unpopularity of high level play is mostly a DM phenomena. Players generally love to play high level characters, and the thought of a
'capped' campaign is a tad disheartening. It is fun to level up and play the whole gamut.

I think it's very much a dm thing - it's a lot harder to plan for a high level party in general and for a lot of dm's it also means they can't use the same tools since pc's can simply sidestep or plow through anything that looks like a low-level challenge.

The flip side is: you really don't need to plan for a high level party. Just throw everything at them and let them figure it out. They have the tools.

In other words: you can no longer challenge the party with a squad of orcs. (Or the level appropriate variant thereof.) But you can throw 1,000 orcs at them and see what happens.

I find that if the dm is 'a fan of the pc's' this issue doesn't tend to come up, but if the dm is mostly a fan of their own setting, this becomes a problem for them, since high level pc's tend to warp the setting around them unless you railroad them.

 

[Oofta]

I agree it would be great of WotC to develop tier 4 and epic level adventures, to support those levels of play. A lot of DMs do avoid them IMO because the challenging the power of PCs at that point make is difficult.

This is kind of a Catch-22. Because WOTC thinks there's not a lot of demand for high level adventures they don't produce any. Because they don't produce any most people don't play high level unless the DMs are comfortable making their own content.

 

[Reynard]

Well, having played through and into the Immortals Set (can't really get much more powerful than god), changing paradigms is pretty much needed.

I agree it would be great of WotC to develop tier 4 and epic level adventures, to support those levels of play. A lot of DMs do avoid them IMO because the challenging the power of PCs at that point make is difficult.

For myself anyway, I like playing characters that are ordinary people who do extraordinary things, but frankly have no desire to do superhero things anymore. I've been to Hell, the Abyss, and saved the world from apocalypses, created artifacts, destroyed artifacts, and conquered nations. Of course, that makes it easier for me if I want to run such an adventure...

I don't think high level adventures require world shaking plots or even plane hopping adventures. They can, of course, bu there are personal things that can happen too that require great power. Rivalries between powerful entities (like dragons and giants, or liches and vampire lords) that don't include taking over nations or the world. What happens when an NPC the party cares about goes messing with a Deck of Many Things and gets themselves in real trouble and the PCs have to fix it. Speaking of artifacts, isn't it about time someone goes and finds that Axe of Dwarvish Lords deep in the Balrog infested Mountain Kingdom?

 

[Mercurius]

This is kind of a Catch-22. Because WOTC thinks there's not a lot of demand for high level adventures they don't produce any. Because they don't produce any most people don't play high level unless the DMs are comfortable making their own content.

I hear you, but we're at a point where there might be demand, at least to test the waters. We're in the 7th year of product and story arcs, and there must be lots of high level characters out there, maybe retired after story arcs, chomping at the bit for more.

I think the way to go would be publish two books: One, a planar story arc perhaps riffing off of Planescape, delving beyond the world, and that takes PCs to level 20. Two, an epic handbook of some kind, that expands on epic boons, gives campaign guidance for Tier 4 and above, has a bestiary of cosmic and divine beings, a compendium of artifacts and high powered magic items, even offers something beyond epic boons like 'divine powers.'

An alternate would be to take one of the Magic settings that is higher powered (assuming there is one), and go with that.

 

[Reynard]

I hear you, but we're at a point where there might be demand, at least to test the waters. We're in the 7th year of product and story arcs, and there must be lots of high level characters out there, maybe retired after story arcs, chomping at the bit for more.

I think the way to go would be publish two books: One, a planar story arc perhaps riffing off of Planescape, delving beyond the world, and that takes PCs to level 20. Two, an epic handbook of some kind, that expands on epic boons, gives campaign guidance for Tier 4 and above, has a bestiary of cosmic and divine beings, a compendium of artifacts and high powered magic items, even offers something beyond epic boons like 'divine powers.'

An alternate would be to take one of the Magic settings that is higher powered (assuming there is one), and go with that.

I think they should do a Yawning Portal/Saltmarsh style book of high level adventures ranging from 13 or so to 20. I think it would be more broadly useful than a singular high level AP.

 

[Oofta]

For my high level campaigns sometimes I've had world-shattering/planar travel other times it was more region-shattering with possible further implications.

So yes, awakening that sleeping god/Jotun would be bad but at least initially only for that region. Might have had larger impact on the world eventually had the PCs failed. The players didn't even realize the meta-plot for quite a while though. It was just an extension of an ongoing campaign that justified stuff that happened previously.

Epic level (over 20) campaigns have been more world shattering, but I'm not sure i want to go there again, or at least not very often.

 

[jayoungr]

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good 15th level 5E adventure (it could be an earlier edition adventure as long as it translated pretty easily to 5E).

For 5E, I always recommend Palace of the Red Pasha (for 17th level). It's meant as a sequel to Rise of Tiamat, but it easily stands alone.

DM's Kit: Palace of the Red Pasha - Dungeon Masters Guild | Dungeon Masters Guild

DM's Kit: Palace of the Red Pasha - DM’s Kit: PALACE OF THE RED PASHA There is little time to celebrate the victory at the Well of Dragons. The Lord’s A

www.dmsguild.com

You could also excerpt one of the high-level adventures from Scales of War; there's a very good fan-made 5E conversion here:

Scales of War in 5E

My experiences converting a 4th edition D&D adventrue path into 5th edition

5escalesofwar.wordpress.com

Betrayal at Monadhan + Grasp of the Mantled Citadel (levels 14-15), or Test of Fire (level 18) stand pretty well alone, if you change some of the setup. Or the whole level 14-20 sequence of adventures starting with Betrayal at Monadhan works well as a mini-campaign.

EDIT: Come to think of it, Palace of the Red Pasha has a portal that leads to the City of Brass, and Test of Fire takes place in the City of Brass, so you could string those two together as a level 17-18 adventure arc too.

 

[Hoffmand]

Well, having played through and into the Immortals Set (can't really get much more powerful than god), changing paradigms is pretty much needed.

I agree it would be great of WotC to develop tier 4 and epic level adventures, to support those levels of play. A lot of DMs do avoid them IMO because the challenging the power of PCs at that point make is difficult.

For myself anyway, I like playing characters that are ordinary people who do extraordinary things, but frankly have no desire to do superhero things anymore. I've been to Hell, the Abyss, and saved the world from apocalypses, created artifacts, destroyed artifacts, and conquered nations. Of course, that makes it easier for me if I want to run such an adventure...

I’m similar. I found I like epic with 5E. But I love playing joe the plumber or bob the mailman. But I love COC 7E for that, even if it’s a dark ages campaign. For d&d I’m Conan or Elric.

 

[NotAYakk]

I mean, T4 5e lets you do this:

A Tarrasque, 3 demon lords, ~1000 orcs led by ~100 orc bezerkers and a warchief, 5 dozen elementals, and a small host of angels are attacking the castle in 7 days.

You have 100 Guards, 10 Knghts on Hippogriffs, and a Champion on a Wyvern on your side.

Go!