Running Mass Combat

[Nebulous]

Ok, between Grim Tales mass combat rules, Fields of Blood, Mini Handbook, Heroes of Battle, Cry Havoc, Free Companies (Conan mass combat) and any other system you can think of, what is the best way to run big battles? What combination of the above has worked for you? I've tried a few of the above, and while i like the GT Battle Rating calculator, I found myself still having to add in ad hoc rules. I don't want to have an incredibly number crunching heavy game, i want it more dynamic but still strategic where the players have a lot of say in what happens. Is there a system that grants special abilities to units as a whole, sort of like pseudo feats for a group?

 

[diaglo]

Chainmail by Gygax & Perrin

 

[IronWolf]

You may want to look at Heroes of Battle and see if it meets your needs....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/860900000

 

[DM_Jeff]

Mass Combat

Yes, there is, but it's in an obscure place. There is a 3-4 page segment of the d20 Swashbuckling Adventures hardcover by AEG that actually has a mass combat system that's easy to eyeball, set up, and plays fast while still allowing the players to help move troops, decide attacks, and special attacks.

I'm not saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread (and that is pretty great), but I've used it in Midnight, Forgotten Realms, my own homebrew campaign and it handles everything with no problem. It's a darn shame they don't have that on a PDF somewhere. Might want to check out if it's open content, actually. Hmmm.

-DM Jeff

 

[nothing to see here]

You may want to look at Heroes of Battle and see if it meets your needs....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/860900000

Actually, WOTC have already told us that Heroes of Battle precisely WILL NOT have any sort of mass battle system included, which is unfortunate. Outside of a feeble attempt to work mass battles into the the minitures game, WOTC have apparently decided to cede the subject matter to third party publishers.

I'm essentially with nebulous all the way on this one. By far and away I find Fields and Blood and Grim Tales to be the cream of the crop. However (and as a Fields of Blood fan, this pains me) I've found the Fields of Blood rules set to be a little rigid in places, making adaptations difficult. The Grim Tales system on the other hand is one of the most elegant d20 system mechanics I have seen though, like you, I have to fiddle with it, as there are a couple of elements missing from it that I would like to see.

 

[Nebulous]

Hmm. AEG, huh? Haven't heard of that one, and i want mass combat in Midnight too. How else would you destroy the elves of Erethor?

 

[Nebulous]

I'm essentially with nebulous all the way on this one. By far and away I find Fields and Blood and Grim Tales to be the cream of the crop. However (and as a Fields of Blood fan, this pains me) I've found the Fields of Blood rules set to be a little rigid in places, making adaptations difficult. The Grim Tales system on the other hand is one of the most elegant d20 system mechanics I have seen though, like you, I have to fiddle with it, as there are a couple of elements missing from it that I would like to see.

Yeah, i really do like Grim Tales, but there was SO many details missing that i found myself putting more work into than i wanted to. Now, the mechanics they have are really elegant, you're right, but it doesn't do a good job with examples of what combat might run like. When we test ran a battle it turned into a kind of boring number crunch with absolutely no flavor. But the numbers crunched very crunchily.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Yeah, i really do like Grim Tales, but there was SO many details missing that i found myself putting more work into than i wanted to. Now, the mechanics they have are really elegant, you're right, but it doesn't do a good job with examples of what combat might run like. When we test ran a battle it turned into a kind of boring number crunch with absolutely no flavor. But the numbers crunched very crunchily.

It helps to have the players involved on the strategic level, not just the tactical level.

Historically speaking, sad to say, most battles did come down to a "number crunch" once battle was joined.

The most interesting part is not the battle itself, but the strategic jockeying of forces before the first shot is fired.

Fields of Blood approaches it from this angle as well-- in fact more of the book is concerned with the governance of armies than the actual battle resolution.

And I think that's perfectly appropriate for D&D. If I want to play a tactical wargame, D&D is obviously not the best choice. You want to give the players the power to make important "army scale" decisions, and resolve the actual meatgrinder battles fairly quickly.

 

[Hellefire]

OD&D Companion rules

Aaron

 

[nothing to see here]

It helps to have the players involved on the strategic level, not just the tactical level.

Historically speaking, sad to say, most battles did come down to a "number crunch" once battle was joined.

The most interesting part is not the battle itself, but the strategic jockeying of forces before the first shot is fired.

Fields of Blood approaches it from this angle as well-- in fact more of the book is concerned with the governance of armies than the actual battle resolution.

And I think that's perfectly appropriate for D&D. If I want to play a tactical wargame, D&D is obviously not the best choice. You want to give the players the power to make important "army scale" decisions, and resolve the actual meatgrinder battles fairly quickly.

Thanks for replying Wulf, it's certainly great to have access to answers 'from the source'.

I hope you don't mind house-rule aficianado's like myself trying to tinker with the system. (I also hope people don't mind this slight digression in the discussion). There are three things that I'm trying to integrate into the Grim Tales system right now.

1) A way for the rules to reflect gifted generalship (outside of the Command-check initiative bonus)...so that a weaker force with a great leader actually can 'punch outside it's weight class'

2) A greater impact from the strategic environment (e.g. if one army successfully outmanouvres another, shouldn't there be a strategic advantage other than changing the groudn type?)

3) More tactical options for things like different formations, or the effects of morale. (A phlanx of elite dwarven defenders, and a horder of screaming demons might have the same CR/BR but react very differently to the ebb and flow of battle).

Gifted leadership and level of intelligence/morale would seem to be things that, like area of effect attacks, have a much greater impact on mass combat than individual combat and would warrant extraction from the base d20 rules as well...