Running night-time combat

[LokiDR]

Situation: Two characters (elven rogue, human gunfighter) are in the middle of a rolling plain with a campfire hoping a particular bandit group will find them. They had a white flag out. It is midnight.

5 hobgolins found them instead, spotting the campfire from a distance. The hobs approach quietly, but the rogue on watch hears them.

1st round: the rogue yells to sleeping charcter, gets out a smoke-stick and lights it in the fire. All 5 hobs charge him, missing due to concealment of smoke (I ruled it was 1/2 concealment at that point. The other character wakes up.

2nd round: The other character gets up, draws a gun, and fires. The rogue bluffs, and hides on the other side of the smoke from all the hobgoblins. 3 hobs charge the gunfighter, 1 searches for the rogue and finds him. One hob searches and finds nothing.

3rd round: The gunfighter backs up and fires. The rogue sneak attacks the clues hob with alchemist fire. The hobs take down the gunfighter.

4th round: The rogue runs into the night, the hob nearest runs after him, the others check the gunfighter as they want prisoners.

Ok, from here, things get fuzzy. The rogue runs a few rounds untill fails a balance check (DC 15 for uneven ground down a hill) He then pulls out a kukri, feints the hob following him, takes a shot, and takes the hob down in a sneak attack. He then jogs back to the campsite being tailed by hobs staying out of his range of vision (I ruled 5 feet). He dances around the wagon in a similar fasion to kill the remaining 3.

The questions:
1) what were the general problems with this combat?
2) Can you run full speed at night without a balance check?
3) You are at half speed in darkness, does that apply?
4) How far can you see at night with low light vision?
5) Should the rogue have had any chance (lvl 4, 1st level hobs)

 

[daemonslye]

Tell me about the moon...

 

[DMFTodd]

Problems

Spotting Distance would be 420 ft on average (DM60). The rogue has lowlight so he can take a +5 on the spot (Assuming some moonlight). So he probably spots them at a little bit of distance (at the very least, campfire gives 40' or so of light, low light doubles it, so he can see just fine to 80').

First round I would have done a suprise round. Rogue could draw the smoke stick but not light it. Hobs get to single move.

You can't do sneak attack damage with alchemist fire.

For movement in adverse conditions, you generally use the "Hampered Movement" table - PH143, rather than balance checks. Poor visibility cuts movement rate in half.

Hobgoblins have Darkvision, so the farthest he can get away and still see the rogue is 60 feet. So he can stay back that far. Even at 60 feet though, a listen check at -6 will let the rogue hear it.

Assuming some moonlight, decide how far a normal person could see and then double it for low light. With a reasonable moonlight, I'd give 20-30 of vision. Double that for the low light.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Problems

Spotting Distance would be 420 ft on average (DM60). The rogue has lowlight so he can take a +5 on the spot (Assuming some moonlight). So he probably spots them at a little bit of distance (at the very least, campfire gives 40' or so of light, low light doubles it, so he can see just fine to 80').

I figured overcast night, total darkness as a base. Definately not moonlight. Are there any concrete guides on the differences?

I assumed a fire banked for the night would be torch equivelant, 20' (40' with low light). Any basis for this one way or another?

First round I would have done a suprise round. Rogue could draw the smoke stick but not light it. Hobs get to single move.

Both sides aware, no need for surprise round.

You can't do sneak attack damage with alchemist fire.

I disagree. Ranged attack that does damage immediately. I see no reason it shouldn't apply sneak attack damage with it.

For movement in adverse conditions, you generally use the "Hampered Movement" table - PH143, rather than balance checks. Poor visibility cuts movement rate in half.

Does overcast night qualify as poor visiblity for a low-light vision character? I figured balance applies for "uneven ground", but the movement table would probably have been better.

Hobgoblins have Darkvision, so the farthest he can get away and still see the rogue is 60 feet. So he can stay back that far. Even at 60 feet though, a listen check at -6 will let the rogue hear it.

In retrospect, I should have given the rogue a listen check for the hobs shadowing him. To their credit, the hobs did have some move silent skill and range working in their side.

Assuming some moonlight, decide how far a normal person could see and then double it for low light. With a reasonable moonlight, I'd give 20-30 of vision. Double that for the low light.

I was assuming on the order of 5 or 10. Is there precident? I tend to make darkness more dangerous.


Thanks for your thoughts. Any other opinions?

 

[rhammer2]

Re: Problems

You can. However in the described situation you can't because the smoke stick is providing concealment.

You can't do sneak attack damage with alchemist fire.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: Re: Problems

You can. However in the described situation you can't because the smoke stick is providing concealment.

The hob was outside the smoke, and the rogue moved around to get a clear line of sight.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. Usually at night outside, low light vision is superior to 30ft darkvision... how much do hobogobos have?

One level 4 rogue might easily turn hobgoblins to shishkebab.

For running in the night, I would have asked for balance checks as well (for the hobos too) and tumble checks to avoid falling damage in case they fail.

Gunfighters deserve such a fate

 

[LokiDR]

Hmm. Usually at night outside, low light vision is superior to 30ft darkvision... how much do hobogobos have?

One level 4 rogue might easily turn hobgoblins to shishkebab.

For running in the night, I would have asked for balance checks as well (for the hobos too) and tumble checks to avoid falling damage in case they fail.

Gunfighters deserve such a fate

Hobs have 60'.

Any time the rogue hit with sneak attack, they exploded, as they only had 6 hp.

I don't think I rolled balance for the hobs and that is an oversight. Live and learn.

So, you think the gunfighter should have been grated cheese but the rogue could kill them all? Interesting. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[daemonslye]

My take (sorry for the long post)

ENVIRONMENT

Uneven terrain (rocky hills); Total Darkness (overcast no moon) (ouch. worst case
scenario; you evil, evil, DM.);


PRE-COMBAT

Rogue hides (or is this assuming too much) and stations himself on watch (centrally?
off to one side? the same side as the approaching hobs?)

Hobs see a single campfire and decide to approach (all at once? with missile weapons
out? wearing armor? from all sides? with others hanging back?)

- Roll listen vs move silently (rogue vs hobs)
- Roll spot vs hide (hobs vs rogue)

distance mods + (for rogue) total darkness past 40' from fire

Results: rogue listen check is successful; Was the hobs spot check successful? (assuming
the rogue did not hide at all then yes).


ROUND 1:

Initiative; Rogue wins?

Rogue: (MEA) retrieves smokestick (SA) lights smokestick in fire
(FA) yells to the gunslinger, drops stick and looks around.

Hobs: (S-FRA) charge the standing guy partly concealed by smoke; All
attacks miss, they flank the rogue on multiple sides (or if they all
approached from one direction, only three could charge and attack?
the others move into position? where? I suppose they did not have
missile weapons, or they would have stayed back and done that first)

Gunslinger: (starting to wake) listen check successful

ROUND 2:

Gunslinger: wins init; (MEA) stands from prone (MEA or FA) draws gun (maybe he has
quickdraw? if so (SA) fires one shot (misses? -4 to hit - fire into melee?)

Rogue: (FA) bluff "Hey your shoes are untied!" (MEA) hops through the smoke;
(SA) crouches/hides behind a bush

(3) Hobs: (S-FRA) Charge the gunslinger - ouch!

(2) Hobs: (MEA) move though smoke (SA) spend an action spotting (one success)
(FA) one croaks "there it is! by the plant! kill it!"; The other, "Where?"

ROUND 3:

Gunslinger: (FA) 5' step back (SA) "full" attack, fires

Rogue: (MEA) pulls a flask from pouch; (SA) throws it at the hob who still
does not see him; hit! "it's better to burn out than fade away!!!"

(3) Hobs: (FA) 5' step to gunslinger (SA) All attack; "Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!!"

(1) Hobs: (MEA) move to rogue (SA) swing (and miss?); The other does his impression
of red dragon as he was hit in the back of the throat; Falls and makes smelly smoke.

ROUND 4:

Rogue: (FRA) spots gunslinger going down (through the smoke?), (MEAx2) The rogue hustles
off into the, uh, total darkness. Assuming he is 15' from the campfire, he moves to the
limit of his vision (another 25') and then stumbles in the darkness for another 17 feet
(he is 42' from the hobgoblin who sees him clearly).

(3) Hobs: (FRA) start wrestling over the gunslingers loot; er, that is, "check the body"

(1) Hob: (FA) "he's gettin' away!" (MEA+MEA) Assuming he cannot charge (bushes in the way),
hustles next to the rogue.

ROUND 5:

Rogue: (MEA+MEA) runs 30' between bushes; draws kukri; makes balance check (-10 for total darkness?)

(1) Hob: (MEA) runs up to rogue (SA) swing and miss; even though the rogue is effectively blind
(FA) "guys! this way!"

(3) Hobs: (FRA) continue wrestling over the gunslingers loot;

ROUND 6:

Rogue: (MEA+MEA) runs 30' between bushes; misses balance check.. falls prone. He is around
100' from the camp (unless the running and missing continued for longer...)

(1) Hob: (MEA) hustles up to the prone rogue (SA) swing and miss! even though the rogue is
effectively blind (FA) "hah! got you now!"

(3) Hobs: (FA) "hey! you got one? where?" (MEA+MEA) they pick up their weapons and fan out
toward the noises (moving 30')

ROUND 7:

Rogue: (FA) "Hey! Look your shoe is untied again!" somehow points in the right direction.
(MEA) stands from prone (SA) stabs the Hob looking at his shoes; makes his miss chance
"Stuck like a pig!" - No sneak attack while blind - but - Lucky roll! Max damage -
Hobby goes down!

(3) Hobs: (FA) miss listen checks? (MEA+MEA) "I heard something over behind that hill!" (the
wrong hill....)

ROUND 8:

Rogue: (FA) makes listen checks (MEA+MEA) moves silently away from the Hobs (moving at
er, 15' round) makes balance checks

(3) Hobs: miss listen checks; move off in the wrong direction - cant find rogue;

ROUNDS 9-N:

Rogue: (MEA+MEA) moves 15' per round back to camp; Assuming direct route, makes it back
in five or six rounds (assuming he tries to stay quiet);

(3) Hobs: Search for rogue, maybe find their comrade, wrestle over loot, head back to
the camp;

Gunslinger: Dies unless the hobs bandaged him... Did the Hobs make their heal check??

ROUNDS N-X:

Rogue: hides and takes out a Hob by surprise, moves behind wagon; Hobs run around
wagon and miss rogue; Rogue bluffs and kills another; Hob swings and misses; Rogue
bluffs and kills the Hob;

Rogue: Wrestles himself for the loot...

---------------------------------------------------------

IN SUMMARY:

With the hampered movement of the rogue, and total darkness, things above seemed a
little too lucky for the rogue; The Hobs should have stamped out the fire (but, hey,
they are not that wise - Wis 10);

In total darkness, using missile weapons (or even hand weapons - charge!) trailing a
stumbling elf, four hobgobs should have had no problem taking down their prey. That
said, he could be a *very* lucky rogue...

~D

From SRD:

Table: Spotting Difficulty
Circumstances DC
------------- --
Base 20*
Size +/-4 per size category
Contrast +/-5 or more
Stillness (not moving) +5
Six or more creatures -2
Moonlight** +5
Starlight† +10
Total darkness Impossible††
*x25 if one side is hiding, and ignore size modifiers (see text).
**+5 bonus on Spot check if the spotter has low-light vision or if he or she has darkvision that extends far enough.
†x+5 bonus on Spot check if the spotter has low-light vision or +10 if he or she has darkvision that extends far enough.
††Unless the spotter has darkvision that extends far enough.

I will assume Total Darkness means that there is no light; ie. Even those with low-light
are effectively blind (thus the comment re darkvision and no mention of llv).

Edit: fixed me quotes....

 

[daemonslye]

DoublePost (sheesh)