D&D 5E Running Rime of the Frost Maiden

Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
Including Adventurer's League-style encounter scaling for the combat encounters would be imperfect, and wouldn't solve everything, but would help considerably and would not add that much copy. IMO it's an easy lift, works reasonably well in the AL adventures, and I can't think of a good reason not to use it in the hardcovers.
 

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robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
For published adventures is is at best 1:2 and sometimes closer to 1:1 because I not only have to parse everything the author(s) intended, but also do the work of making sure I have the appropriate stat blocks on hand and make any changes due to incompatibility my group, their play style, etc.
I’ve come to a similar conclusion, published adventures are more effort and less fun. It was a bit of a shock! :)
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
If the published adventures aren't giving you what you want... I don't see the problem in you all just deciding not to buy and use them. Why is that a bad thing? Especially when you get to save all your money by not buying it?

I've never gotten the reasoning for complaining that someone wasn't making something you wished to buy. Or that they did make something that you didn't.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
If the published adventures aren't giving you what you want... I don't see the problem in you all just deciding not to buy and use them. Why is that a bad thing? Especially when you get to save all your money by not buying it?

I've never gotten the reasoning for complaining that someone wasn't making something you wished to buy. Or that they did make something that you didn't.
It's the promise unfulfilled. Published adventures appear to promise a well-crafted adventure with most to all of the work done for you. When this isn't delivered, especially if it's more work than doing it on your own, then there's a disjunction with the promise. It's well and good that some understand that more work is required, but that's not what's being sold, especially not explicitly.

I understand that adventures are tons of work for me, so I don't do many. Some are good (CoS is pretty good), or I needed to start something quickly (which is how I ran SKT, which I hacked heavily by the end). But, this isn't what's implictly sold, so disillusionment and criticism is very natural when you reach this conclusion. I don't think it evaporates after, either.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Well then that's the issue. Some of us aren't seeing this implicit promise based merely on the product's very existence. We are seeing the book for what it explicitly is. And we aren't getting upset that our own biases are not being fulfilled when we see the product on the shelf.

Especially considering that it is quite possible to run these adventures exactly as they are. Some people will be able to run the book cover to cover and have a great time with it. Now will it fit the nitpicky, exacting needs of every single DM out there and how they run their own specific style of game? No. Nor should anyone expect it to. And if someone DOES expect it to... then that's on them. Not WotC.
 

As an aside, I have found that when I am prepping my own games I get a ratio of about 1:4 -- that is, an hour of prep gets me four hours of table time. Now, I do a lot of improvisation, so prepping is outlining locations and NPC motivations and stuff more than "writing" an adventure.

For published adventures is is at best 1:2 and sometimes closer to 1:1 because I not only have to parse everything the author(s) intended, but also do the work of making sure I have the appropriate stat blocks on hand and make any changes due to incompatibility my group, their play style, etc.
I am right there with you. And that is logical in my view. You understand and know the background of a setting that is your creation. You understand how the puzzle pieces tie together. And you are able to manipulate the plot without causing disruptions. But when you are running another person's adventure, it takes time to prep because all of those are foreign.

To the others: I do want to be clear, I am not advocating that there is a correct way. But, it has been my experience that a prepped DM's table, when running an AP, runs more smoothly, and has an overall better experience. Some tables and others may not have experienced this. That's is great. But, if you are going to knock plot holes into a two page adventure and say it is not well thought out, then I can't help but feel compelled to question whether it is just trolling.
 

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller
Supporter
Well then that's the issue. Some of us aren't seeing this implicit promise based merely on the product's very existence. We are seeing the book for what it explicitly is. And we aren't getting upset that our own biases are not being fulfilled when we see the product on the shelf.
Fantastic, and yet the D&D player base is exploding so there are an awful lot of people who will have to go through this painful learning experience:

New DM: "Oh look! An awesome new adventure for the world's greatest roleplaying game! I can't wait to run it for my group..."

Slightly wiser-DM: "Oh look! A new adventure, I'm sure I can wrangle this thing into something runnable for my group."

Wise DM: "Oh look! A new adventure let's see what I can strip out of it. I'm not even going to try running that hot mess!"

:p
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Well then that's the issue. Some of us aren't seeing this implicit promise based merely on the product's very existence. We are seeing the book for what it explicitly is. And we aren't getting upset that our own biases are not being fulfilled when we see the product on the shelf.
I don't think that's a good thing. Being conditioned as a customer to expect that the product means you'll have to work to fix it is like buying Ikea furniture but having to source your own wood and hardware for parts of the build, and in others having to figure out how to put it together without a page of instruction. I mean, I'm an engineer and have done woodwork -- I've built custom floor to ceiling bookshelves for my home, not to mention two desks. I'm not great at woodwork, but I'm decent, and I adapted my own designs from others, much like what you're suggesting GMs need to do with published adventures. But, I also own a few things from Ikea, and I greatly appreciate that I don't have to do that -- that everything is in the box, and the instructions work, and the product is good without hassle (my daughter's room is a homage to Ikea at this point -- she loves the stuff).

That the customer base is expecting to have to fill in the blanks doesn't give the product a pass for not being explicit about this. And that some people run it without problems doesn't mean that there's not a problem. You wouldn't buy a product that has lots of 1-3 star "doesn't work" reviews because there's a handful of 5 star "worked great for me!" reviews, would you? Especially if the low reviews list specific problems that the high reviews just say weren't problems for them. You'd look at the problems, evaluate the product, and see if those are likely to be problems for you.

This is the point of the criticism. Sure, WotC may not ever listen, and may not change, but if one poster here is aided by a detailed criticism -- if only to know how to address it themselves -- then the criticism has value. Dismissing it because there might be a different someone that doesn't need it isn't really a valid counter. That would be like saying seasonal allergy medicine is unnecessary because some people don't need it at all and others can just muddle through with some home-remedies.
Especially considering that it is quite possible to run these adventures exactly as they are. Some people will be able to run the book cover to cover and have a great time with it. Now will it fit the nitpicky, exacting needs of every single DM out there and how they run their own specific style of game? No. Nor should anyone expect it to. And if someone DOES expect it to... then that's on them. Not WotC.
No, it's on WotC. Unless they're explicitly stating that you cannot run their adventure without changing or fixing it, it is on them. They're providing an adventure, which has a whole set of implied qualities -- that it's actually a complete adventure, at least to the point it functions on it's own; that it has everything present necessary to run or it is explicit in what other products are necessary to run it; and that it runs at least reasonably well from the text. I don't think that decades of this being rare is sufficient to say that these things aren't the fault of the adventure writers. I also don't expect perfection, but there's so many places that things are obvious that there's a thriving post-market discussion/product line to "fix" adventures that it's obvious there's a continued issue. I'm unwilling to say that the adventure writers are at least a large part at fault for this. Again, they've done well in other products, so it's tough to say.

Now, that said, I absolutely recognize that there are production tradeoffs -- that a good enough product is the best product if it's the one you have to sell. And I don't expect perfection or close to it, that's not only impossible it's unreasonable. But when there is a common set of complaints that seem to be applicable to every product, and these complaints are resolved for many by amateur hobbyists (the popularity of the Alexandrian fixes, for example), then it's not a matter of catering to specific whims or tables, but addressing some fundamental issues of play. And, again, a product that works just fine for some doesn't prove that the product is generally good.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
There is guidance like that in the module. Guidelines like "the Players should be level X before starting this", or "After two side missions the characters should advance one level".
you mean like
Page 18: "When the characters reach 4th level, they ... also learn about new adventure opportunities outside Ten-Towns, as described in chapter 2." Chapter 2: "By the time the characters reach 3rd level...

I mean, that's sloppy...
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
you mean like


I mean, that's sloppy...
Eh... it's not something I'm concerned about. Yes, it's an editing failure, but having been professionally published (as in, published in my profession) and being part of a formalized editing and review process, things like this happen even in much less complicated products. That's not excusing it so much as being understanding that it happens. I'm much more concerned about functional issues -- places where the adventure breaks -- than with copyedit issues. Still, what's egregious is subjective, and far be it for me to suggest that this isn't sufficient for you to dislike the product. It should have been caught, even if it may be understandable how it wasn't.

It is, though, an obvious error that looks worse in light of other criticism about the product, though.
 

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