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Rust Monster Lovin'

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Hussar said:
As has been mentioned, people toss the wizard at it and let the wizzie beat it to death with a club. How is that a memorable encounter?

Throwing the wizard at it is what makes it a memorable encounter. How many times does the rest of the party stand back and tell the wizard to "get in there and kick some a**"?

Upping the damage and hp plus nerfing the rusting effect takes away that aspect of the creature. Yes, it may be more "utilitarian" as a general encounter, but it completely negates its special purpose as a role-breaker.

Scribble said:
I'm kind of wondering what would have been the reaction if Mr Mearls had written this as an entirely new monster? Maybe called it a Warper Bug, or something, and taken away all refferences to "rusting." Would it have caused such an outcry?

Is it really a problem with the creature, or is it a "Don't touch my nostalgia!" problem?

If this had appeared as a new monster I would have ignored it completely. However, it's not a "nostalgia problem" it's a "why not create something new rather than wrecking something that's not broken to begin with by 'fixing' it problem". The rust monster is quite functional as-is (actually the current version is less functional than the original ca. 1970s version, but it will do) and serves its purpose well. The proposed "fix" demonstrates an attitude that is (IMO and apparently quite a few others) bad for the game and bad for the hobby.

The motto for 3e in 2000 was supposed to be "Back to the Dungeon", not "Back to the Cradle". I'm not sure the folks at WotC completely "got it" even in 2000 and time seems to have made matters, if anything, much worse.
 

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Ourph said:
Throwing the wizard at it is what makes it a memorable encounter. How many times does the rest of the party stand back and tell the wizard to "get in there and kick some a**"?

Exactly. It's funny.
 

Sorry for the long post - but I was able to find a story that is related from a series some friends of mine wrote from back when there was a DIY Aquerra print 'zine. It was called, "In the Palm of Harlin Half-hand, and each feature had a gronard type character teaching a lesson to a more "modern" imaginary player character (Theodore of Thoth) - using a lot hypebole and comedy to get the point across.

Anyway, I though some of you might enjoy it:

In the Palm of Harlin Half-Hand

I am Theodore of Thoth. May Thoth bless this, the third document of the recorded wisdom of Harlin Half-hand. This tale was recorded upon my return from searching for the headpiece of the legendary Staff of Thoth. My party and I were returning from the Northern Reaches, where our efforts to find the headpiece had taken us. The map we had been sold turned out to be a fake. It really led to a lair of a hellish beast in the mountains. The beast was like a huge man, but covered in stringy white fur and had a mouth more befitting a shark's than a human's. During the battle with the creature, Percival the Dandy, a friend and party member, was slain. We were back where we started and now down one treasured companion. We resolved to return to Verdun and find some new leads. While there we would bury Percival in accordance with this wishes. I presided over the ceremony the same morning that our ship docked and afterward we split up to get supplies and find what we could in the so-called Heart of Aquerra.

I headed through the Port District to go to the market in the Temple District to get new chainmail, as my old suit was showing signs of wear. It was already past noon and Ra's Glory had reached its apex and was beginning its slow descent back to Anubis' Realm. As I walked, I heard a familiar voice boom from an alleyway. ".. An' stay out, ya dang cheat!" It was followed by a yelp and a crash. I immediately recognized the voice of Harlin Half-hand and decided to talk to him, thinking he might have words to help with the sorrow I felt at losing a friend.

As I walked up the alley where the Yellow Mackerel Tavern could be found, a beat up looking man wearing a sour expression rushed past me. He had apparently gotten up from a pile of rubbish that was leaning there against the alley wall as he brushed himself off even as he pushed past me. I entered the Yellow Mackerel and saw Harlin at his usual table, which was covered with cards and money. Across from Harlin sat three men. Harlin was gathering the coins with sweeping motions of his arms.

"I'm sorry boys, that's the last hand. That dang cheat just burnt my nugget," he said. The men got up and left, but not without a few surly comments muttered under their breath. Harlin chuckled as he finished gathering the money. He looked up and saw me walking over to him.
"Well boy, I ain't seen ya round here inna long time. Thought you'd gone and got yesself kilt. Looks like you need to hear anudder of my tales, seein’ as you ain't learnt nuttin' from the others. Let me tell ya 'bout some other dang fools that woulda got themselfs kilt if it haddena been for my teachins."

Harlin hoisted his ever-present tankard and I saw another man looking at us from the bar.

"Oops, " said Harlin, "I awmost fergot these. " He pulled a deck of cards from under his sleeve. These cards looked identical to those cards that had been on the table. He shoved the new deck in the pocket of his pea coat.

"Now, whut wus there names...?" The man who'd been watching us left the tavern at this point. "There was Torgamel the Black, Sanjo the Mighty, Doogahown the Darin' and there wus Aramel the Elf. Now as far as I can remember all them fools, but Aramel, used long swords. No daggers, no clubs, jus' long swords. But Aramel, well, it... "

"It?" I interrupted. "Why do you call Aramel, it?"

"Well," Harlin replied. "You know those elves. They all look the same, an' I ain't gonna look down there an' check." He gave me a wink. "So I call dem 'it'. Now stop innaruppin' me, boy. As I wus sayin', Aramel wus the stoopidest of dem all. All it carried was a bow. It jus' stayed in back and shot arrows, dint even carry anudder weapon. Calt demselfs, The Flashin' Swords o' Verdun. The only reason I wus even wit dem dang fools wus 'cause they had the other half of the map to the treasure of the evil mage Karaptus. I had found my half in the lair of the mighty Quickolich. The quickolich could kill a man with its eyes. It had a long snaggly neck on a body like a bear. I slew the beast before it could stare me down, though. But that is anudda story."

Harlin took another long swig and I watched his Osiris' apple bob up and down and up and down. He sighed in contentment and wiped his mouth on his sleeve. “Anyway, we met on the road to the ole keep where it wus rumored the wizard kept his loot. When we got to da keep, a horde of gobbos fell upon us. I swung my short sword an' the dang thing broke! I tink dem fools did dat to my sword on purpose, so they could finish up the horde demselves. After the fight, I bent down to interrogate one of da liddle creeps and da fools I wus with charged into the castle! I followed them in 'cause I dint wanna lose the other half of the map dem fools wus carryin'.”

“Once inside the castle, the dang portu...porta-co...the main gate closed, lockin' us in and these walkin' skeltens swarmed outta doorway to our right. I wus jus' fine wit' my trusty club, but dem fools, wit' dere long swords, wus just swishin' through ribs and doin' liddle o' no harm. They wus still better than Aramel dough. It just backed up lookin' scared, tryin' to fend dem off wit' its bow, 'til one of dem skeltens hacked through it. Fochoonitly, I wus nearby an' I bashed the skeleton wit' ma club. When we finally defeated the swarm, another swarm came in through the doorway on the left. Even wit' my trusty club I couldna handle so many. So I screamed for the fools to go through the doorway the first skeltens came through. I stood in da doorway coverin' dem fools' backs, bashin' and smashin', smashin' and bashin'." Harlin made back and forth smashing motions with his tankard, splashing ale everywhere.

"Anyway, once alla dem wus in the door, I slammed it shut and barred it wit' ma club. I pulled my dagger from my boot and turned around to see a hole in de floor wit' a rope leading down into it. The fools had already climbed down! I give dem one thing, day wus eager. Too eager. I climbed down the rope an' heard the smash o' wood above me. Below me was a huge beast wit' the body of a cockroach anna tail of a scorpion, and two wigglin’ tenaculls. I looked aroun' fo' da fools I wus wit'. What I saw awmost made me ashamed to call myself a 'venturer… One o' dem wus sittin' in the corner cryin' like a baby, I tink it was dat Tormagel fella. One o' dem wus jus' standin' dere poutin'. Aramel wus jus' lookin at its broken bow an' Sanjo wus punchin' at de monster, but shakin' his hand between blows, like it hurt. The beast wus jus' sittin' dere wit' its face to the ground. I slid the resta da way downa rope an' leaped on da beast wit' ma dagger, stabbin' it. Ma dagger jus' turned to dust. I knew what had happened then. Jus' den, I heard a crash behind me. The skeltens had decided to come down the hard way: fallin'! I knew that soon da whole army would fall down 'pon us. It wus den then I decided to take charge of dese idjits. I yelt at the top a ma lungs, 'GIT UP YA FOOLS!' And I ran down the hallway.

The Flashin' Swords followed me. When we got to the end of the hallway all dat wus there was a stone wall. All dem young'uns wus wailin' dat it wus a dead end. That Tormagel fella was sayin', `I'm gonna die. It's all over.' So I grabbed him and shook him yellin', 'Yer da thief, ain't ya?!? Now that ya ain't got dat chainmail on, ya can climb up an' drop us a rope.' but all he did wus keep sayin', `It's hopeless. We're all gonna die!'. So I shook 'im again and said, `If ya don't climb up, I'm gonna give ya two in da eyes!'” Harlin held up the two fingers remaining on his right hand with a grin. “That got him movin'. While we wus waitin' for him to drop sumpin' down, we saw three o' dem skeltens comin' down de hall."

"'Looks like we're finished now, Harlin,' said Sanjo, but I reached down and grabbed a rock. 'Look down,' I said. 'Dere are plenny uh rocks around!' So we all started tossin' rocks at dem skeletons. The rocks slowed dem down fer awhile. Aramel wus `specially good. It kep hittin' dem squares in da head. So I says, 'Don't get cocky!' 'Ventually, we ran outta rocks, an' jus' when we thought we wus done fer sure, a rope wit' a bucket 'tached came down behine us, an Torgamel yelled, `Climb up!' So we climbed fo' our lives an' foun' ourselves inna kitchen.”

“Now, dem fools jus' wanneda rush out da kitchen, but I says, 'Ya idjits ain't leavin' 'til ya got some weapons. So I began to outfit da group fer combat wit' skeletons or whuteva else we hadda face. I gave Sanjo a big board wit' some nails in it to use as a club anna pot to wear on his head. I gave Doogahown a choppin' block wit' some rope tied around it to use as a shield, anna fryin' pan as a club. 'But I use two long sw...' Doogahown started ta whine. So I slapped him upside da head, an' said, 'Now you'll use a choppin' block anna pan. Shaddup!' I gave Torgamel an 'ole flour sack filt wit' rocks, anna pot fo' his head too. He tied boards to hisself. While we wus doin' this Aramel had gathered up rocks and said, 'Don't worry 'bout me. I'll be fine."' Harlin hissed his voice to a weird falsetto to try to mimic an elven voice.

"I said to him, 'Dontcha `member whut happened when ya wus pinned inna corner by dem skeletons an' ya bow dint do ya no good? Jus' 'cause the rocks worked once, don't mean it'll help in every case. Take dis knife, jus' in case, an 'if ya throw it, I'll kill ya myself.' Jus' den I heard a bangin' on da door and in bust in a bunch o' skeltens, and more gobbos, with a black -robed figure behind them.”

“Sanjo an' me started fightin' back to back, me smashin' wit' ma table leg club an' Sanjo wit' his big nail-board. Outta da corner o' ma eye I saw Aramel being backed up by some gobbos, but this time it wus ready for dem wit' its knife and even when one gobbo tried to sneak up on it, Doogahown crushed it wit' his fryin' pan. Torgamel swung his bag in a wide arc, makin' his way towards de robed figure, who I now saw was chantin' arcane words. The figure's voice got higha an' higha an' jus' when it got as high as I thought it could get, a rock hit him in da face, knocking him back. Me an' Sanjo moved up guarding Torgamel's back. The thief got to da figure jus' as he wus gittin' up, but Torgamel smashed ' im back down wit' his sack.”

“When we wus done, dere wusn't a skelten o' gobbo left movin' in da room. An' when we searched the rest o' da fort we jus' found some papers wit' writin's dat said dat the maps had been planted to lure 'venturers, so they could be robbed an' kilt. We dint find nuthin', so I guess we wus the first to come."

With that Harlin leaned back in his chair and hooked his thumbs in his pants and looked at me expectantly.

"..." As I was about to say something, the door burst open and the man who had been thrown out, along with the gamblers and two thuggish men yelled, "There he is!"

"Ya best be on yer way, boy," said Harlin. "It's time to do a different kinda teachin'. " The last thing I saw as I ducked out the door was Harlin hiking up his belt with a smile and flexing his two fingers.

I learned much from Harlin's tale, as I always do. This tale taught me the benefits of teamwork and how imagination can provide in even the most dismal of situations.

"In the Palm of Harlin Half-hand" created by Dan Silberger and Christopher Cutts. This first appeard in Thoth's Libram Vol. I Issue #32 - January/February 1998
 
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Scribble said:
I'm kind of wondering what would have been the reaction if Mr Mearls had written this as an entirely new monster? Maybe called it a Warper Bug, or something, and taken away all refferences to "rusting." Would it have caused such an outcry?

Is it really a problem with the creature, or is it a "Don't touch my nostalgia!" problem?
No, nothing to do with any kind of nostalgia.

A new creature would have been fine, but rewriting the existing one just because it ruins the PC's precious equipment makes the rust monster bland and boring. You've ruined the reason the creature even exists.

If you're going to do this to the rust monster are you going to modify the oozes and other monsters that eat precious equipment?

If this is where the game is heading then you can bet on seeing more threads like this.
 

Frankly, this is just another example of video game mentality, I can't ever die as long as I have quarters and eventually I will win the game. The original concpet was that the game was a fun version of warped reality with a focus in reality. How is a game fun if there is no risk, no danger.

Let's just rename this to "The Monty Hall and His Amazing Slice Up Defensless Monsters Game". If you can't deal with a rust monster what about the disenchanter, a dragon, a tarassaque? Grow-up people, characters die, monsters sometimes win and even epic campaigns have major characters die - anyone remeber Boromir in the LotR, wasn't looking too good by the end of that first book was he? Sheesh.

No, it's not nostalgia, its "nerfing" a monster that has no really teeth but has one amazingly wicked ability. There has been a lot of nerfing of certain rules and concepts that really shouldn't have been changed in the first place. No DM should start ouot with the concept of a TPK in mind, but if it happens, that is the fault of the players, not the DM (in theory anyway). Yes, maybe I'm an old fart, maybe I have a problem with seeing things changed, but more over is the fact that all you young folks (I sound like my grandfather) can't deal with loss. No wonder Prozac is so widespread.
 

I guess I'm just blind, because I don't see how the re-imagined rust monster takes away the DM's responsibility for his own encounters. The only one who can coddle the players is the DM. The DM is the only person who can put in the "new" rust monster into an adventure for his group. If he put it into a 40x40 room with torches and no hiding place, and a warning sign, he is coddling his players. If he places it in a dark cavern with lots of hiding places, he might challenge his players. If he adds a few more rust monsters, and an intelligent master that takes advantage from the weakened state of the party tank, he is challenging them.
 

Thunderfoot said:
Frankly, this is just another example of video game mentality, I can't ever die as long as I have quarters and eventually I will win the game. The original concpet was that the game was a fun version of warped reality with a focus in reality. How is a game fun if there is no risk, no danger.

babble, babble

Never have I seen a higher ratio of syllables-to-substance.
 

Geron Raveneye said:
There's simply a few completely different game philosophies at play here. One is largely composed of older players who have learned, and are used to, taking any situation and try to adapt their characters to it. Rust monster? Let those without iron deal with it, distract it, avoid it, charm it. Lost your sword/shield/armor to it? Grab a new weapon, improvise armor or shield, work with what you got, or re-equip by taking stuff from other inhabitants of the dungeon you're in. Or retreat to town and get new equipment. All part and parcel of standard dungeon crawling back then. So most of them don't see a problem in the rust monster as is.
Characterizing what sort of people hold an opinion is always trouble. First off, you tend to be wrong more often than you're right, and secondly, it's inevitably going to look like you're making judgements about people who hold certain sorts of opinions, such as "play a little longer, newbie, and you'll see it's no big deal."

As has been stated, flat-out destruction of an item (or more than one item) is a whole lot more potent than CR 3. Compare with magic items and spells that can do the same thing: A level 3 character's unlikely to be running into those.

Now, while it's always OK to mix things up -- one of my two campaign groups, level 1-2 each, will be encountering a CR 15 giant soon -- having it properly labelled as such wouldn't hurt.

Frankly, I'm thinking giving the rust monster a sunder attack makes the most sense, since it works based on an existing rule set, instead of inventing something new. Building onto sunder (with a special ability that lets it work against armor, too) would make it easier to adjust the damage a rust monster could do, at the discretion of the DM. Those who want items to be gone, gone, gone could just throw a "greater rust monster" at them. Those who want a more graduated way of approaching it could go with a "lesser rust monster" or something.

One size does not fit all and options are a good thing.
 

Hussar said:
Why is the base assumption that there will be only one rust monster? While perhaps not common, it's not out of line to have two. Or, an enterprising lizardfolk could keep one as a pet. Heck, why not capture a couple, send them forward first and then wipe out those pesky adventurers?

Why the big blow up though? If you don't like the change, don't change it. It's not a case of coddling players to say that a single encounter should not screw up my entire adventure. A bit of bad luck and the fighter loses his armor and his weapon. At 3rd level, that's a major soak of wealth.

This is an AHA GOTCHA monster. It's not a threat to the party as written. As has been mentioned, people toss the wizard at it and let the wizzie beat it to death with a club. How is that a memorable encounter? It's a joke. Poof, oh sorry, you have no armor any more. Ha ha. (Insert Nelson tone)

People aren't generally blowing up about the rust monster itself but rather the design philosophy that a PCs possessions are more valuable than his life and the threat that this is the direction that designers are going to be pushing the future of D&D into. Some of the people who are supportive of the rust monster have outright said that the loss of their stuff is more traumatizing to them than the loss of their character's life and some people are really upset about the idea of D&D getting neutered in favor of not upsetting those kinds of players. A lot of people are assuming that this redesign is going to become a part of the D&D4 MM and underneath a lot of the melodramatization of the situation is a serious concern that WotC is going to market towards the lowest common denominator, which is how we get boy bands.
 

Thunderfoot said:
Frankly, this is just another example of video game mentality, I can't ever die as long as I have quarters and eventually I will win the game. The original concpet was that the game was a fun version of warped reality with a focus in reality. How is a game fun if there is no risk, no danger.
This is an awfully big pronouncement to make about a monster that no one is claiming is particularly often-used and it's silly to extrapolate from reactions to one monster how people feel about the rest of the game, especially since no one uses these monsters very often.

Instead of making personal characterizations about people who disagree about a design issue, why not focus on the design issue itself? Using this as an excuse to attack the playstyle of people who you will never play with and likely never meet is pointless and off-topic.
 

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