Rust Monster Lovin'

[The_Gneech]

a kobold calvary mounted on rust monsters would be a huge laugh for everyone but the players...

Actually, that would be a pretty neat scenario hook, and I'm gonna yoink it!

Leather armor and fire-sharpened spears, trained by feeding them railroad spikes as treats ... yeah, that's cool!

You definitely want to warn the players what they're going up against beforehand in that case. Maybe they've been raiding villages, and the villagers call for help.

Thanks, BluSponge!

-The Gneech

 

[Knight Otu]

Well you could drop the fiendish, mind flayer, and swarm template on them too. At some point you're just being mean.

Nah, I'd use the new, sneaky version (well, with permanent, repairable damage). That cancels out any possible meanness.

Personally, I would see them as acting more like bugs that pack animals. Sure, some level of cooperation probably occurs, but I'll leave that up to the individual encounter.

Tom
who thinks a kobold calvary mounted on rust monsters would be a huge laugh for everyone but the players...

Don't forget to have the kobolds dangle metal carrots just out of reach of the antennae.

 

[BluSponge]

Leather armor and fire-sharpened spears, trained by feeding them railroad spikes as treats ... yeah, that's cool!

Kinda puts a whole new spin on the whole "carrot and the stick" thing, eh? EDIT: Damn! Knight Otu beat me to it.

You definitely want to warn the players what they're going up against beforehand in that case. Maybe they've been raiding villages, and the villagers call for help.

The dwarves are up in arms! The kobolds' mounts have devoured the famed statue of the dwarfish overlord, leading to plummeting morale and troops abandoning their posts. The vault of ancestral weapons is under heavy guard, and the dwarves just can't figure out why the gold baited traps aren't working. After all...IT'S GOLD!

Thanks, BluSponge!

Have fun. Give my best to your players.

Tom

 

[Geron Raveneye]

What could happen and what actually do rarely have any similarity. Then again, your anecdotal evidence seems to support the stupid whiny player theory.

Now anyone else want to pipe up with tales where their players actually encountered a rust monster? How did they respond? I know there are at least a few of you out there.

Tom

Just one...the most fun one, actually. Was with a group of mid-to-high level characters. One of them had been transformed in a way earlier adventure from a dwarf into an iron statue in the form of a minotaur. At some point, they met a friendly halfling druid who invited them into his home. What he forgot to mention was that he had a rust monster mom around his home, together with a bunch of pups. They immediately came running out to greet him, smelled the iron statue, and commenced to chase the character around the place, until he found a tree sturdy enough to actually climb it and wait them out. In due course, the talk was moved to the base of the tree, and everybody had plenty fun, the player of the iron statue involved.

 

[MarkB]

Well you could drop the fiendish, mind flayer, and swarm template on them too. At some point you're just being mean.

My own encounter with rust monsters was in a 12th-level game, in which the DM sicced two fiendish rust monsters on us in the basement of one of the BBEGs' front operations. We knew what they were, I think the party wizard even made his Knowledge check in-character, but there was no room to manouever. Before we could nail them both, they'd eaten my cleric's enchanted dwarven full plate, and the paladin's holy avenger.

Fortunately, the DM wasn't being totally cruel - this was in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the setting, with major temples to both our characters' deities, so we had some resources to call upon for replacement equipment - which didn't stop it making a major dent in our finances, and more specifically stopped us dead in our exploration of that building (as in "okay, wizard, teleport us the hells out of here before some more come along!").

Just as well we stopped, too - the two rust monsters had come through the same portal that the guy we were tracking left via. When we scryed on the destination, the DM's description was "You see a very large room. The area you're looking at is illuminated out to 30 feet, and you see a large number of rust monsters with glowing red eyes. Further back, beyond the light, more identical sets of eyes can be seen glowing as far back as you can see."

Actually, I don't think we ever did visit there, not even after I bought a set of dragonhide full plate, and the paladin and I both bought gauntlets of rust.

 

[stevelabny]

But it's not ONE DIE ROLL.

you created your character, you chose its strengths or weaknesses. You chose not to take knowledge: dungeoneering or bardic lore or whichever other divinations might help. You made the decision to not have back up weapons or armor. You lost initiative or foolishly entered combat with a creature you know absolutely nothing about. You didn't buff your AC enough to avoid being hit. THEN after all these other things you failed a save. That roll doesnt exist in a vacuum.

I really don't get the story and pre-planned character concept thing. If you already know where you are and where you're gonna end up, what's the point? Isn't the fun part of d&d the bit where the players and the DM both react to the unexpected happenings? If you're just following a script then I'm not understanding the point.

 

[The_Gneech]

My own encounter with rust monsters was in a 12th-level game, in which the DM sicced two fiendish rust monsters on us in the basement of one of the BBEGs' front operations. We knew what they were, I think the party wizard even made his Knowledge check in-character, but there was no room to manouever. Before we could nail them both, they'd eaten my cleric's enchanted dwarven full plate, and the paladin's holy avenger.

Fortunately, the DM wasn't being totally cruel - this was in one of the largest metropolitan areas in the setting, with major temples to both our characters' deities, so we had some resources to call upon for replacement equipment - which didn't stop it making a major dent in our finances, and more specifically stopped us dead in our exploration of that building (as in "okay, wizard, teleport us the hells out of here before some more come along!").

Just as well we stopped, too - the two rust monsters had come through the same portal that the guy we were tracking left via. When we scryed on the destination, the DM's description was "You see a very large room. The area you're looking at is illuminated out to 30 feet, and you see a large number of rust monsters with glowing red eyes. Further back, beyond the light, more identical sets of eyes can be seen glowing as far back as you can see."

Actually, I don't think we ever did visit there, not even after I bought a set of dragonhide full plate, and the paladin and I both bought gauntlets of rust.

That sounds to me like the DM saying "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"

My own experiences with rust monsters were long ago (like two editions ago), but conceptually they were much the same. We did the classic "Ranger in leather and wizard go get 'em, fighter flee to the back shrieking like a cheerleader all the way!" approach and bashed on it until it got frustrated and fled.

I've already related the basics of my gray ooze stories, tho, which are very similar creatures in many ways. Of course, the gray ooze has a movement of 10' IIRC ... the easiest way to defeat is to simply walk away!

-The Gneech

 

[buzz]

Except that it's not useless at all. D&D PCs have players.

But they don't have plot immunity.

Frodo losing his chain shirt doesn't matter, because we know that Tolkein has plans for him beyond that event. A D&D PC has no such story importance; losing that shirt in a context where they can't just go back to town and get a new one has game impact. It could very well mean that their likelihood of dying dramatically increases, and dying means the player has to sit on their hands until in-game events (resurrection, a new PC) allow them to get back in the game.

Ergo, it's entirely valid to be concerned about the play effects of the rust monster. Far more so than whether they would make sense within the context of a novel. D&D is (and has always been) a game, and we can't forget that.

This doesn't mean that PCs get coddled. It just means that, as a developer, Mearls has to give thought to this sort of issue.

 

[Ourph]

It could very well mean that their likelihood of dying dramatically increases, and dying means the player has to sit on their hands until in-game events (resurrection, a new PC) allow them to get back in the game.

Ergo, it's entirely valid to be concerned about the play effects of the rust monster.

I just don't get that connection. A 3rd level PC has a lot better chance of dying against a CR3 Ogre than a CR3 Rust Monster. So if the problem is "rust monsters increase the chance of my PC dying later on" then why isn't every CR3 creature that's tougher than a rust monster undergoing revision because "monster X increases the chances of my PC dying right now?". At least with the rust monster, the danger is something that's in the future and therefore something that the PC (or player) can compensate for and plan around.

If we're talking draining PCs resources, the same thing stands. Isn't purchasing the casting of a Raise Dead spell costing the PC way more than a new +1 sword?

I just don't see how losing equipment is such a game breaking thing if the major consequence is that the PC might die in a later encounter or might be out some cash; or has it come to the point where it's just a given that PC death is something to be avoided and now we're chipping away at the remainder of the potential threats to "story continuity"?

 

[Klaus]

The problem with a CR 3 Ogre is that the player gets to DO stuff to prevent their death. But for the CR 3 Rust Monster, barring metagame knowledge (and my players over the past 15 years wouldn't have any, because I've never used a rust monster for precisely the reasons the article was written), they get no warning. One touch from a rust monster and the weapon or armor is kaput.

It is okay to destroy equipment. An ogre smashing your puny sword with his greatclub ames the player angry *at the ogre*. A rust monster touching his antennae against the same sword and the DM telling that it's destroyed makes the player angry *at the DM*. It feels like an arbitrary decision, on par of a DM turning to an annoying player and saying "Your character has a heart attack and dies".