Rust Monster Lovin'

[The_Gneech]

Raising the CR unfortunately raises the likelihood that something actually valuable will get eaten. At CR 3, the most valuable thing likely to be lost is either MW or maybe +1; at CR 5, there's more danger of the characters being tricked out in mostly magic gear, giving the "Argh! My expensive magic equipment!" complaint a little more weight.

Of all the options discussed, I think the "degrade, degrade, GONE" model is the best one for the stated redesign purpose. It keeps the threat meaningful, without that "Zap your stuff is gone before you even get an action, ha-ha" possibility that has so many folks up in arms.

Still, I'm not convinced the stated redesign purpose is actually a real "problem" rather than being a lot of worry about fragile players that don't exist. I have noticed that the pattern seems to be that people who've actually encounted rust monsters think they're fine as written, while the people who are so sure that they're game breakers haven't tried 'em (on the grounds that they're sure to be game breakers).

-The Gneech

 

[I'm A Banana]

Now that is an excellent suggestion and something that feels right. A magical blade is immune to a natural ability because it is an unnatural weapon.

I'm actually going to be on BlueSponge's side in saying that this isn't a very good solution.

Why's that?

Because it doesn't force you to use different tactics to overcome the monster. In only being able to eat non-magical metal, it's a pretty laughable encounter. And even if it were made weaker, so that the party has less magical items, you still face the "brings the game to a screeching halt" effect.

I don't mind the idea of "removing plusses," though. There just has to be some way to replenish them (a mending spell, a magic weapon/vestment spell, a Craft check, something).

 

[Plane Sailing]

Eh. This change still misses the point, and fundamentally changes the nature of the encounter. In fact, I'd go as far as to say if Mike's redesign is "guilty of coddling whiny players," this version is doubly so. It means there will come a time when rust monsters are no threat at all. The fighter just hands the rogue his +1 sword and *poof*. The party doesn't really have to change tactics at all. It's just another monster to be killed with the standard roll init, roll to hit formula.

Doesn't miss the point at all. In fact you are missing the point here. There comes a time when ogres are no threat at all. There comes a time when all low CR creatures are no threat at all. What is a threat for one level of adventurers doesn't affect adventurers at other levels at all (although with cunning play it can, but it seems that you didn't read to the end of my post).

Even with no change to the monster, the typical party will be dealing with the rust monster with missile weapons anyway if they have any sense. Those fighters who haven't equipped themselves with any kind of missile weapon kinda get whats coming to them sooner or later anyway ("I attack the remorhaz with my two handed sword". "WHAT happens?")

Cheers

 

[BluSponge]

Doesn't miss the point at all. In fact you are missing the point here. There comes a time when ogres are no threat at all. There comes a time when all low CR creatures are no threat at all. What is a threat for one level of adventurers doesn't affect adventurers at other levels at all (although with cunning play it can, but it seems that you didn't read to the end of my post).

No, no. I fully understand that. And sure, there will come a time when the mage will just nuke the little runts with a magic missile spell and be done with it. Such is the nature of the game (and why templates were a good idea!). However, the rust monster is one of those beasties (much like green slime, rot grubs, ear seekers, and a bunch of other nasties) that don't fit well into the whole CR system that 3e introduced. Under the right circumstances, they can always be a threat. Even a lvl 20 barbarian can run afoul of a rust monster if he isn't thinking. Not to drudge up the whole me vs. them argument again, but that's one of the cool things about ole rusty. Even with a high level bunch, the suggestion of a rust monster will make them squirm.

Here's an exercise for you who don't believe me. Next time you run a high level dungeon crawl, throw in an abandoned rust monster breeding room (ala the coccon room from Aliens). The floor is stained with rust. Scattered about are the unfinished remains of an item or two (like the ornate sheath of a sword). The husks of dead rust monsters are found here and there, say about 12 of them. There are piles of old straw and debris, with broken eggs and the like, and a few unhatched ones. Put the room on a choke point in the dungeon (not THE choke point, but certainly one of them). Now the exit from the room is a dark, unfinished corridor leading into somewhat of a wet labyrinth, with lots of dripping water and mysterious splashes. Even without a single living rust moster encounter, I can almost gaurantee you'll have your players jumping at their own shadows for the next 2 hours!

Would rust monsters get that sort of respect if they couldn't eat magical weapons? Nope.

Game on,
Tom

 

[BluSponge]

Just an idle observation. Does it strike anyone else as weird that DMs like to use kobolds as the scourge of the dungeon, employing all sorts of unsavory tactics from murder holes, poison, flaming pitch, crawlspaces to small for anyone but maybe a halfling or gnome, and guerilla tactics that would make Ho Chi Minh proud, but rust monsters are somehow beyond the pale?

I guess making the players feel like chumps is ok as long as it doesn't result in the loss of their stuff.

Hmmm.

Tom

 

[Kunimatyu]

Well, I've certainly enjoyed this thread a lot. When I use a rust monster in the future, it'll reduce something by -2,-4,-6, gone, have a nondamaging bite attack that it uses with Improved Disarm to grab metal items, have a climb speed and possibly a slow burrow, and its damage can only be repaired with Craft, mending, or make whole.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

But if *I* were going to redesign the rust monster, I'd make one very simple change to it.

It only affects non-magical metal.

And there is precedence for this. The spell Rusting Grasp only affects non-magical metals. The RM's ability could be an extraordinary ability based on the Rusting Grasp spell:

Rusting Grasp
Transmutation
Level: Drd 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One nonmagical ferrous object (or the volume of the object within 3 ft. of the touched point) or one ferrous creature
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Any iron or iron alloy item you touch becomes instantaneously rusted, pitted, and worthless, effectively destroyed. If the item is so large that it cannot fit within a 3-foot radius a 3-foot-radius volume of the metal is rusted and destroyed. Magic items made of metal are immune to this spell.
You may employ rusting grasp in combat with a successful melee touch attack. Rusting grasp used in this way instantaneously destroys 1d6 points of Armor Class gained from metal armor (to the maximum amount of protection the armor offered) through corrosion.
Weapons in use by an opponent targeted by the spell are more difficult to grasp. You must succeed on a melee touch attack against the weapon. A metal weapon that is hit is destroyed.
Note: Striking at an opponent’s weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Also, you must touch the weapon and not the other way around.
Against a ferrous creature, rusting grasp instantaneously deals 3d6 points of damage +1 per caster level (maximum +15) per successful attack. The spell lasts for 1 round per level, and you can make one melee touch attack per round.

I like the balancing factors. No magical items, but no saving throw. Destroys weapons upon touch, but only reduces armor bonus by 1d6 points per attack.

If the rusting ability is kept when the RM is struck by metal weapons I would keep the saving throw in that instance. Effectivly the save would be a measure of attempting to strike the RM without accidentally touching its attennae.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The save is too easy as is. I'd bump the save to dc 30 or something. Or just get rid of the save altogether. if I was going to mess with the rust monster. Even 20th level characters should fear the rust monster. Is it fair? No, but there's nothing fair about venturing into an undeground setting full of beholders and dragons and rust monsters with a pointy stick to begin with.

Spoken like a true grognard. Screw the players having a good time, running a balanced game or whatever. D&D is about the DM power tripping! Your ass is mine, and I'll rip up your sheet whenever I feel like it!

Every day this site becomes more and more antagonistic to anyone but the traditional "screw you" DM of the early 80's, with its typical oppositional style of running a game. Its sad how few of us actually grew beyond that.

 

[painandgreed]

Spoken like a true grognard. Screw the players having a good time, running a balanced game or whatever. D&D is about the DM power tripping! Your ass is mine, and I'll rip up your sheet whenever I feel like it!

Every day this site becomes more and more antagonistic to anyone but the traditional "screw you" DM of the early 80's, with its typical oppositional style of running a game. Its sad how few of us actually grew beyond that.

Hardly. With the old game, it could be played however anybody wanted. With new design policies, it is increasingly forcing the new style of play consisiting of bland encounters with level adjusted DPS on everybody. What people (me anyway) are becoming antogonistic to is a certain style of play forced upon them by design rather than a robust set of tools so each group can play as they see fit.

 

[Henry]

Originally Posted by ehren37
Spoken like a true grognard. Screw the players having a good time, running a balanced game or whatever. D&D is about the DM power tripping! Your ass is mine, and I'll rip up your sheet whenever I feel like it!

Every day this site becomes more and more antagonistic to anyone but the traditional "screw you" DM of the early 80's, with its typical oppositional style of running a game. Its sad how few of us actually grew beyond that.

Hardly. With the old game, it could be played however anybody wanted. With new design policies, it is increasingly forcing the new style of play consisiting of bland encounters with level adjusted DPS on everybody. What people (me anyway) are becoming antogonistic to is a certain style of play forced upon them by design rather than a robust set of tools so each group can play as they see fit.

Here's the two opposite sides of the issue, never spelled out more clearly. The truth is more somewhere in the middle. My take on something like the rust monster is: Don't use it, if its existing powers don't fit the style of play you prefer. There's bound to be other players using it as written, and they're the ones who'll benefit. If anything, a redesign should include quick fixes for optional levels of deadliness. Something like: Standard Rust monster does -2 per hit to limit of -6. Sidebar: CR 5 = Reflex save DC 17 or item loses half hit points, and then gone on next hit; CR 6 = Reflex save or gone; CR 7 = no save. Basically, scaling monsters, the same way Dungeon magazine scales adventures.