Sacred cows: Where's the beef?

[Andor]

D&D has had several editions over the last 30 years. We've played with paper and pencils and pizza stains, and many different computer games of wildly varying quality. We've seen classes and races come and go and come again. We've played medieval european fantasy and british hippos in space. We've used steel, magic and the powers of the mind.

We've worried about goblins and laughed at giants. We've deciphered intricate puzzles of magic and politics and shot ourselves in the face with lasers.

We've fought on squares and hexes and sand. We've seen scales from 30' squares to 5' squares. We've fought the 60 second round and the 6 second round.

We've seen a dozen magic systems duel with the legacy of Jack Vance.

So my question is: What would they have to take away before it wouldn't be D&D anymore in your eyes? Humans? The d20? Magic?

Footnote for the oversensative - This post is inspired by the furor over 4e, it is not an attack on 4e so no defensive yelling please.

 

[Mark]

What would they have to take away before it wouldn't be D&D anymore in your eyes?

D&D is merely the brand and player base, and whatever is produced under it will always be D&D in my eyes. However, the game I love to play best cleaves closer to Medieval/Fantasy and whatever ruleset I use will always be bent toward that play style.

 

[Dragonbait]

I believe that this thread exists elsewhere, and I predict that this thread will collapse under more edition wars.

when is D&D no longer D&D to me?
If they remove magic, Armor Class, the d20, and certain consistant D&D races like kobolds, chromatic dragons, elves, gnolls, mind flayers, dwarves, etc.

Edit: The first half of what Mark said is great. Ironically, almost all the D&D games I have played in have had fantastical devices such as air ships, magically-powered weapons, etc.. So a low-magic and/or hard-core Medieval setting is less D&D-ish in regards to the games I have played in. I suppose that's because I mostly game with people who grew up on Final Fantasy rather than Lord of the Rings.

 

[Hussar]

It stops being D&D for me when I can no longer get together with some friends, create a bunch of fantasy characters, jam them together for the most ridiculous of reasons, kill lots of stuff for fun and profit, and then laugh about it over beer.

Oh, and if they take my pretzels away I suppose.

 

[Roxolan]

The D20, a medieval world and at least a little magic. That's it.

 

[Mark]

I believe that this thread exists elsewhere, and I predict that this thread will collapse under more edition wars.

when is D&D no longer D&D to me?
If they remove magic, Armor Class, the d20, and certain consistant D&D races like kobolds, chromatic dragons, elves, gnolls, mind flayers, dwarves, etc.

Edit: The first half of what Mark said is great. Ironically, almost all the D&D games I have played in have had fantastical devices such as air ships, magically-powered weapons, etc.. So a low-magic and/or hard-core Medieval setting is less D&D-ish in regards to the games I have played in. I suppose that's because I mostly game with people who grew up on Final Fantasy rather than Lord of the Rings.

You said it. Given enough players and a flexible but familiar ruelset, the games we play can differ widely and still come under the same overarching banner or brand.

 

[Asmor]

The vital bits of D&D, for me:

1. Race, class, and level-based system.
2. d20s for most things, other dice used almost exclusively for damage.
3. Semi-generic fantasy as a baseline assumption (e.g. swords and sorcery are a must, though I don't mind them experimenting with adding new things to it).
4. Certain monsters intrinsic to the D&D identity. Gelatinous Cubes, Mind Flayers, Beholders...

Worth noting that I started playing with 3rd edition, so I'm sure that informs my biases strongly.

 

[Obryn]

The vital bits of D&D, for me:

1. Race, class, and level-based system.
2. d20s for most things, other dice used almost exclusively for damage.
3. Semi-generic fantasy as a baseline assumption (e.g. swords and sorcery are a must, though I don't mind them experimenting with adding new things to it).
4. Certain monsters intrinsic to the D&D identity. Gelatinous Cubes, Mind Flayers, Beholders...

Worth noting that I started playing with 3rd edition, so I'm sure that informs my biases strongly.

This is pretty much exactly my list.

-O

 

[Mercule]

The vital bits of D&D, for me:

1. Race, class, and level-based system.
2. d20s for most things, other dice used almost exclusively for damage.
3. Semi-generic fantasy as a baseline assumption (e.g. swords and sorcery are a must, though I don't mind them experimenting with adding new things to it).
4. Certain monsters intrinsic to the D&D identity. Gelatinous Cubes, Mind Flayers, Beholders...

Semi-agree, except for #4. I actually don't like most aberrations. I wouldn't necessarily campaign for their removal, but it certainly wouldn't bother me. The Far Realms, now, adding that to canon somehow violates my "sacred cow" meter -- like Boca burgers or something -- and I'd like to see it removed. The Far Realms aren't part of D&D.

Other sacred cattle for me:
5. six stats that go from 3-18 for normal, first level humans (one of the few areas 4e bugs me is in giving humans a stat bonus).
6. Humanocentric world view and default setting assumptions.

 

[justanobody]

So my question is: What would they have to take away before it wouldn't be D&D anymore in your eyes?

4th edition and even 3rd were not really D&D to my eyes. Fun as they are, they are not much different from any other RPG like Warhammer.

THAC0 and the 5 saves were something that rang D&D for me. THAC0 was a defining thing that made D&D stand alone from other RPGs.

You can have humans or not in any game, and you mention taking them away to no longer be D&D, but they did just take away the concept of human-centric games.

d20 is just a die, and I don't recall seeing one in Baulder Gate, NWN, or other games that carried the name of D&D.

Magic being removed, would really make it NOT D&D.

What makes D&D D&D is not the name brand, or that elves and dwarves are present, but how the whole game works and makes you feel about what you know.

People that starter playing 4th edition may love it and then play an older edition and feel that they are not D&D because it took away the sacred cows of powers, healing surges, etc, that they have grown accustomed to.

So it will really be a personal thing that cannot really be defined by the majority.

I always wondered why armor ratings really followed ship hull ratings in terms, but it did work so well with THAC0, that it didn't bother me outside of curiosity.

One thing now that seems un-D&D like is the possibility of having infinite AC theoretically with the undefined finite range previous editions had.

Like a few others have already said, D&D now is just a brand name like Nike or Swatch. It is pretty much just the designer label over the knock-off.

Like J-ello vs [insert local supermarket name] gelatin dessert.

So D&D is now the J-ello and Band-aid (© Johnsons & Johnsons) of the RPG world.