Sacred cows: Where's the beef?

[mmadsen]

That just sounds like every run of the mill RPG.

Um, no, it sounds like every D&D-derived RPG -- which, of course, includes most of the successful ones. But Monte's point was that those D&Disms were largely decried by game designers and by many players, yet they were probably what made the game work.

Weren't we just discussing Runequest? The whole point of the game was that it was "realistic" -- characters didn't have lots of hit points; they learned to climb by climbing and to fight by fighting, not by going up in level, and anyone could learn any skill, with the right teacher; they explored a living, breathing world, not arbitrary rooms strung together in a silly dungeon; etc.

And, of course, Runequest had nowhere near the success D&D had.

Dungeon could just be replaced with location. That is nothing close to what D&D is about, but RPGs in general. MUDS, MMOs, many games have those elements, and are NOT D&D.

All dungeons are locations, obviously, but not all locations are dungeons -- not by a long shot. And you're missing his insight entirely: A dungeon naturally lends itself to adventure. A choice of doors and paths, with the implicit mystery of what might happen this way versus that way -- the adventure practically writes itself.

Also, of course, MUDs and MMOs have copied the most successful elements of D&D that they could copy. Primitive MUDs did dungeon crawling well, and they achieved a lot of what many people enjoyed from D&D.

 

[RFisher]

So many victims, so many dead bodies... You think they were a fair price for your enlightenment?

If only all wars could have a similar bodycount, eh?

The more I think about it, the more I agree that Dungeons & Dragons is all about the name, and nothing more.

Yes, it means something different to each of us, but I draw the opposite conclusion. I think the reason all of us are here is because it isn’t just a name. It means something to each of us.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If only all wars could have a similar bodycount, eh?



Yes, it means something different to each of us, but I draw the opposite conclusion. I think the reason all of us are here is because it isn’t just a name. It means something to each of us.

Objectively speaking, the only thing making D&D different from every other game is its name.
Subjectively speaking, it's not the name, but our experiences and associations with it.

In other words, I agree with both of you.

 

[an_idol_mind]

D&D stops being D&D to me and becomes d20 Fantasy when you take out stuff like green slimes, rust monsters, owlbears, and beholders. When spellcasters don't get to use Bigby's hand spells to pummel their opponents and thieves don't have to check for disintegration traps behind locked doors. The epic fantasy aspect of D&D can be simulated in a dozen or more other role-playing games, but the random weirdness that makes the world mysterious and dangerous is one of the game's most unique appeals.

 

[Hussar]

I don't disagree at all. The current game and its implied setting don't say, "Caves of Chaos" and "Keep on the Borderlands" to me.

Really? Jeez, I see it as the total opposite. I could run KotB almost as written in 4e, just with changing the stats. The number of monsters, their placement, the treasure given, by and large would fit perfectly with a 4e game. How much more PoL can you get than the Keep?

For the first time since B/E D&D, I could play KotB almost exactly as written. That to me makes it feel VERY D&D.

 

[rounser]

Really? Jeez, I see it as the total opposite. I could run KotB almost as written in 4e, just with changing the stats. The number of monsters, their placement, the treasure given, by and large would fit perfectly with a 4e game. How much more PoL can you get than the Keep?

For the first time since B/E D&D, I could play KotB almost exactly as written. That to me makes it feel VERY D&D.

You appear to have completely missed the point and the context of the person you're quoting, there.

 

[mmadsen]

Really? Jeez, I see it as the total opposite. I could run KotB almost as written in 4e, just with changing the stats.

We can agree that you can run Keep on the Borderland with 4E -- in fact, you can run it with all kinds of rule systems -- but, as rounser said, I think you're missing the point. Leading a Dragonborn Paladin, a teleporting Eladrin Wizard, etc. through the Caves of Chaos doesn't feel like the old-school game.

(It almost feels like an X-Men/D&D crossover, or something. Two great tastes, but not necessarily together...)

 

[vagabundo]

To the OP: As long as it has Dungeons and Dragons and the name DND is will be DND to me. Doesn't mean I will like or enjoy every edition equally, but that is what it means.

For me, editions-wise, it goes 4e>2e>1e=3e...

You appear to have completely missed the point and the context of the person you're quoting, there.

I think that is very much the point. You dont have to use anything as written in the 4e core books. 4e is a flexible, easy to run, system and the fact could nearly wing those 1e modules is a testimony to how DnD 4e is.

 

[Hussar]

We can agree that you can run Keep on the Borderland with 4E -- in fact, you can run it with all kinds of rule systems -- but, as rounser said, I think you're missing the point. Leading a Dragonborn Paladin, a teleporting Eladrin Wizard, etc. through the Caves of Chaos doesn't feel like the old-school game.

(It almost feels like an X-Men/D&D crossover, or something. Two great tastes, but not necessarily together...)

Meh, to me, there just isn't all that much difference between an elf and a dragonborn. Neither of them are human. They are both fantasy races. I can get on board with either one.

In both cases though, we're going to have a small group of heroes happily slaughtering their way through multiple caves. And, as I said before, converting KotB to 4e doesn't require me to completely rewrite every encounter. Just change the stats and done.

I guess my sense of wonder or whatever it is, is just pretty robust. I'm not all that fazed by the idea that I'm playing a lizard man or an elf. Heck, in 1e we had ogre PC's and minotaurs. In 2e we had all sorts of races. In my last three 3e campaigns, there were almost no core races and very few core classes.

So I'm scaley and have a breath weapon instead of being immortal and have pointy ears? Big deal.