Sacred cows: Where's the beef?

[justanobody]

I don't get it - what's special about THACO? It's merely a different way of presenting a target number (or Difficulty Class).

Maybe it was just the name that made it special. Like D&D, before it was just another d20 system game. It was just a little thing that set D&D apart.

4th has things like that all through it that set it apart from many other RPGs.

 

[mmadsen]

If I can raid the Caves of Chaos and return to the Keep on the Borderlands to lick my wounds, it's probably D&D to me.

You can do that with no ruleset at all, or anything from Rolemaster to GURPs. FATAL and World of Synnibar could be D&D to you. I think this argument is specious at best.

If Rolemaster had been presented by TSR as Really Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, that is exactly what it would have been to me and my friends.

Certainly some game systems could directly contradict what we expected out of D&D, but my concept of D&D was far more about adventuring than about six attributes from 3 to 18, descending armor class making you harder to hit, one hit die per level, etc.

I would argue that the particular collection of tropes that makes its way into most dnd games while largely independent of mechanics are a great deal of what makes dnd what it is.

Exactly.

And I'd argue that it's precisely this stuff which has been stuffed up. The vibe when "dragonborn warlords" and blink elves called something clearly trademarkable are in the party is different. The implied setting has changed significantly, and for me into "not D&D" territory when you combine it with all the mechanical trumps flavour compromises which have been made.

I don't disagree at all. The current game and its implied setting don't say, "Caves of Chaos" and "Keep on the Borderlands" to me.

That's why we're seeing these weak arguments - desperate attempts to include 4E in a definition of D&D with absurdly wide parameters to qualify within, because too many of the specifics are wrong.

Perhaps you should realize that not everyone is here to "win" an ediition war.

 

[RFisher]

Perhaps you should realize that not everyone is here to "win" an ediition war.

Yeah. Because I already won. (^_^)

i.e. What I’ve learned from edition wars has enhanced my enjoyment of the hobby. My thanks to all our edition war veterans.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah. Because I already won. (^_^)

i.e. What I’ve learned from edition wars has enhanced my enjoyment of the hobby. My thanks to all our edition war veterans.

So many victims, so many dead bodies... You think they were a fair price for your enlightenment?

 

[WayneLigon]

Certainly some game systems could directly contradict what we expected out of D&D, but my concept of D&D was far more about adventuring than about six attributes from 3 to 18, descending armor class making you harder to hit, one hit die per level, etc.

I think it's probably time that people acknowleged RPG == D&D. There is no real difference between most RPGs save the flavor of certain rules, and if one prefers a tight, rules-heavy RPG or a lighter, looser RPG. The idea that certain trappings make an RPG is becoming kinda silly.

I can use the Rolemaster rules (which already give me classes, hit points, and spells as individual things), add in some pickle-nosed trolls that didn't regen when fire was used, put you underground and such and if you were telling the story of your adventure to another person I'd defy them to be able to tell what specific rules set you were using. You'd be rolling different dice at different times, but the overall experience would be the same, and indistinguishable from the experience in other editions or games.

 

[justanobody]

D&D is not the Jello RPG. It is time people start understand that RPG =/= D&D, but D&D is an RPG. Every RPG is not D&D, and if I were talking to someone claiming they were playing D&D and I started referencing D&D and they didn't know what I was talking about, they would surely be made to look a fool for not being able to hold a conversation of intelligent means by not even knowing what was spilling forth from their own mouth.

The terms are not synonymous.

 

[Asmor]

Great. Now I want to play the JELLO RPG. Anyone willing to CM*?

*Cosby Master

 

[justanobody]

Great. Now I want to play the JELLO RPG. Anyone willing to CM*?

*Cosby Master

CM: And you are attacked by 3 puuuuuuuuuddings.
Me: I use my Dine On Enemy power * Implement - Spoon.

 

[mmadsen]

I think it's probably time that people acknowleged RPG == D&D.

I think you've taken that too far, because, as I said earlier, some game systems can directly contradict what we expect out of D&D.

Something like Rolemaster was meant to be Really Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, so playing through Keep on the Borderlands with it would have still felt like D&D, but with a slightly different flavor.

I think it's a terrible mistake to pretend that system has no effect on how we play a game, because we know people play differently when given different rulebooks.

On the other hand, a few cosmetic changes to those rulebooks can often turn them into a new edition of D&D, rather than a totally different game.

 

[Mercule]

I don't get it - what's special about THACO? It's merely a different way of presenting a target number (or Difficulty Class).

THAC0 was a late addition and never felt right to me. Table-driven attack values were easy. AC counting up is easy. THAC0 was neither and was a real pain in the butt.