Sacred cows: Where's the beef?

I started with 2e, went back to 1e, then jumped on to 3 and 4e. I have to say it all felt like D&D...Vampire never did...Rifts, Shadowrun, LOR never did eaither...Role-master and Warhammer didn't really feel like D&D eaither.

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I have played alot of games in the last 15 years. I can say D&D is a feeling around the table that can't be put into words. I feel sorry for people that say X edition isn't d&d to them, it feels like they lost some of the magic in the world. I am playing and running 4e and playing 3e right now. If next week one of the guys said lets play basic D&D my answer would be simple..."I call being the elf"

As I was reading this thread, I was mentally crafting my response to the good question of the OP when I came across this post, which is basically exactly what I would say (likely better than I would have said it).

I recall that love/hate relationship someone else was talking about hitting me and my group after a couple years of 2e (before the Options clutter). We've always played other systems, but D&D was always the center, ongoing game. But we put it aside and started playing Runequest. Runequest was a great system with some things that many sometimes felt were missing from D&D, like experience based skills (where if you spend time climbing, you get better at climbing, but not at swimming), a hit location system, a de-emphasis on magics dominant role, etc. We played the same game, same playstyle, in the same homebrew world I'd been running for years, and we had some good times playing Runequest for quite awhile. But eventually something began nagging us in the backs of our skulls, a feeling that something was missing. One day, we looked around at the table at each other and there was a sort of psionic connection (despite all of us loathing psionics) and one of us said, "so, we should switch back to AD&D, huh?" The rest agreed, we grabbed the books of the shelf and spent that session converting the PCs over, as close as we could, to 2e. And we've never abandoned the game since.

D&D just has this certain, je ne sais quoi about it. Its not about levels or THACO or hitpoints, or some certain mechanic or monster, its just this essence that sets it apart, the feeling the game has always captured. Maybe it's just that D&D was the first and all other fantasy RPGs (and RPGs in general), no matter how different, are in the shadow of that legacy. If you've been around for the whole ride, D&D created the hobby, defined it, and was the first to capture our imaginations in the way that RPGs do. Everything else in the industry, whether horror, fantasy, or scifi, whether PnP, PC, or MMO, is viewed in context to D&D.
 

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Runequest was a great system with some things that many sometimes felt were missing from D&D, like experience based skills (where if you spend time climbing, you get better at climbing, but not at swimming), a hit location system, a de-emphasis on magics dominant role, etc. We played the same game, same playstyle, in the same homebrew world I'd been running for years, and we had some good times playing Runequest for quite awhile.
When I first came across Runequest, I loved the fact that the rules made sense and seemed realistic, and I was young enough that mastering complex rules seemed fun in its own right.

But the implied Bronze Age setting did not resonate with me at all. I wanted a mix of The Hobbit, King Arthur, and Robin Hood, and it never occurred to me to simply do that, but with Runequest's rules. (Again, I was pretty young.)
D&D just has this certain, je ne sais quoi about it.
I think it's worth exploring what this je ne sais quoi might be. Monte Cook takes a stab at it in D&Disms, a column he almost called "The Genius of D&D", and in the sidebar on page 106 of the 3E DMG:
D&Disms

I thought for a moment to call this column "The Genius of D&D" but I was afraid that people would think I was blowing my own horn. That's not what this is about. The genius (or luck, or both) that I am talking about has to do with the early days of the game's development, and nothing to do with 3rd Edition, except that we were smart enough not to change them.

In fact, without the concepts mentioned below, I'm fairly certain the game would not have survived long enough for there to be a 3rd Edition. The truth is, each and every one of them has contributed to the game's long life. I find it amusing that most of them are the aspects of D&D that get criticized the most, even by otherwise smart and well-informed gamers.

Levels

Often touted as unrealistic, the concept that characters go up in levels and gain power as they do is probably the best part of D&D. Put simply, the concept of level advancement keeps people playing. At any given time, when you or I are playing the game, we can look on the class charts and plan ahead -- dream, if you will -- regarding what new powers and abilities our character will get if we keep playing.

Without the "carrot on the stick" that's clearly displayed ahead of us (in the form of the level advancement system) we might not keep playing the game. If the characters never got better, or if "where we were going" wasn't clear, we'd get bored. And because level advancement comes as a "lump sum" instead of gradually, bit by bit, the benefits are almost always significant and impressive. Yet these benefits come often enough to be fitting rewards for consistent play.

Levels are also a useful measuring tool for the DM, when designing challenges for the players. They provide, quickly and easily, a shorthand means of gauging power. If the DM knows the players are 5th level, they'll probably lose if they have to fight a dragon turtle, but simply getting across a chasm provides practically no challenge at all.

Classes

Classes are brilliant because they provide focus and direction. While some people find them limiting, it is in fact those limitations, or the preconceived notions of those limitations, which make them so useful.

Classes facilitate the game as a group activity. If we all sit down at a table to play a game, and you ask me what my character is, I can go on for half an hour describing him -- and it might even be interesting -- but as we begin playing together, you need a shorthand idea of who I am and what I can do. As we go forward, and play the game over many sessions, you'll see that I am not "just my class" and you'll learn all the little details. But to begin with, you'll at least have something to grab hold of as a mnemonic, since you'll have to do the same with everyone else's character as well.

Classes channel character creation creativity. They provide a templated starting point for you when you make a character. They're not a straightjacket -- they are a median point from which a creative player can deviate. If you want a character who grew up on the streets but secretly wants to learn the arts of magic, you can create a rogue character and eventually multiclass into a wizard. With multiclassing, and skill and feat selection, you can create whatever character you want -- classes don't stop you at all.

Classes are simple. For people who aren't interested in in-depth character background, saying, "I'm a human fighter," or "I'm a half-orc cleric" is all the development they need. For many, development comes later, over the life of the character. Classes provide the luxury of not having to come up with every personality quirk, character backstory point, and area of interest right away.

Classes provide an interesting avenue for personal game design. Classes (and now, with 3rd Edition, prestige classes) are game design tools that DMs and players can easily use to tailor a character. While it's true that the skills and feats you choose can tailor a character, designing a whole new class isn't that hard, plus it's fun and can be very rewarding.

Classes also add to the longevity of the game in that they give players obvious goals for their next character. "Next time, I'm going to play a wizard." Or, "next time, I'm going to play a gnome wizard."

Hit Points

Sure, a system that describes being burned, falling from a high place, and being stabbed with a sword all using the exact same mechanic isn't very realistic. However, it's exactly that abstraction that makes the game playable and easy to learn.

Most importantly, however (and this is always overlooked), it works over the long term. You can play a campaign for years, and the system never breaks down. Threats always appear in their proper perspective. Whether you are 1st level or 15th, you know exactly how much damage "20 hp of damage" is, and what it will do to your character. Everything is clear and nicely proportional.

Virtually every other damage system is either too deadly over the long term, or not deadly enough. While that might be the desired result for the game in question (you don‚t want Champions to be very deadly, for example), it's not appropriate to D&D. Dungeons & Dragons is too broad in scope to use anything more complicated. The damage system has to cover all the aforementioned types of damage (fire, falling, etc.) as well as such varied situations as being attacked by a giant squid, being crushed in a trap, and even being shot with a gun (or a laser gun). Hit points, able to encompass anything new that a DM can dream up, suit D&D-style play perfectly.

Dungeons

I've already gone on at length on this topic in the sidebar on page 106 of the DMG. Let me just add to that by saying that not only are dungeons excellent learning tools for new DMs and players, but they're just lots of fun. Dungeon-style adventuring is escapist, simple and often lighthearted. It's not the be-all and end-all of D&D scenarios. The game can handle all sorts of situations, encounters, plotlines, or what have you. Witness such varied settings for the game as Spelljammer, Dark Sun, and Planescape. Nevertheless, the dungeon setting offers so many possibilities for fun gaming that to overlook it is shortsighted.

In Conclusion

Some people believe that D&D is the most successful roleplaying game* simply because it was first. I don't know if that comes from a lack of insight or sour grapes. Or both.

If you're reading this and thinking, "Well, I certainly don't need a carrot on a stick to keep playing, or a template to help me create a character for game X," or "I need hyper-realistic hit locations and different charts for different sorts of damage my character takes, as found in game Y," or whatever, all I can say is: Good for you. It's great that you've found a different game that suits you. But literally millions of D&D fans before you, after you, and playing the game right now have enjoyed the game for just these reasons (and plenty more).

Games need mechanics. They need tangible hand-holds for both players and DMs to use as tools to measure things that the real world has no means to measure -- personal power and skill, the severity of a wound, and so on. These facets of the game were all "sacred cows" when we worked on 3rd Edition. They are aspects of the game that we knew we shouldn't change. Hopefully, going forward, they never will change.

* It's the most successful RPG by far -- so much more so, in fact, that other roleplaying games don't really even register on the same scale.​
 
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Stuff like this reminds me why I respect Monte Cook so much as a designer, even if I am not sure anymore I agree with everything he created.

Of course, it doesn't really "help" the edition war, or even the differentiation between game systems. Other games can also have this core essential elements.

Maybe a game just needs to have all these elements - and the D&D logo on its cover. If you take away classes or hit points, you can call it D&D, but no one will really believe you. You can use all these elements and take away the D&D logo, and people consider it a D&D knock-off and wonder - "why bother - we already have D&D, and it even has that shiny logo on its cover!"

Of course, you can change other elements that are part of the latest edition(s) of D&D and some will say it's no longer D&D. But there will still be enough left thinking that it's still D&D.

Warning. This post contains extreme generalizations. Please a also note that the D&D tends to vary over time, too.
 

That just sounds like every run of the mill RPG. Dungeon could just be replaced with location. That is nothing close to what D&D is about, but RPGs in general. MUDS, MMOs, many games have those elements, and are NOT D&D.
 

The more I think about it, the more I agree that Dungeons & Dragons is all about the name, and nothing more.

If you ask someone who started in BECMI, he'll give you one answer. Ask people who started in 2nd, 3rd or even 4th, and you'll get three different answers.

D&D's whatever whoever owns the license wants it to be. Yes, you could make some argument that if they released a new version of D&D which was indistinguishable from baseball, then it's not D&D anymore, but that's a very spurious argument. Who would ever do that, and why would they?

Hell, if the D&D name can survive this, it can survive anything.
 

That just sounds like every run of the mill RPG. Dungeon could just be replaced with location. That is nothing close to what D&D is about, but RPGs in general. MUDS, MMOs, many games have those elements, and are NOT D&D.

And yet, they are still the genius of D&D. And they truly are, because other RPGs ,MUDs and MMOs came after the original D&D that contained all these elements.

Or in other words - exactly. Defining what D&D is and trying to use anything but that supposedly meaningless logo becomes impossible to do because you can easily create a D&D off-shot that contains all the elements of D&D and still isn't called D&D officially. Take 3e, rule that skill rolls have to be under your ability score (no DC), and add a +3 bonus to the ability score if "trained" (+5 if class skill), remove skill points and feats, reduce the number of spells per day but equalize BAB and HD stronger - you might end up with a system that people would see as a D&D knock-off - or as D&D, if you have the logo.

It's also why for many people D&D equals RPG. Its "geniuses" have often been used in other games...
 

And yet, they are still the genius of D&D. And they truly are, because other RPGs ,MUDs and MMOs came after the original D&D that contained all these elements.

Or in other words - exactly. Defining what D&D is and trying to use anything but that supposedly meaningless logo becomes impossible to do because you can easily create a D&D off-shot that contains all the elements of D&D and still isn't called D&D officially. Take 3e, rule that skill rolls have to be under your ability score (no DC), and add a +3 bonus to the ability score if "trained" (+5 if class skill), remove skill points and feats, reduce the number of spells per day but equalize BAB and HD stronger - you might end up with a system that people would see as a D&D knock-off - or as D&D, if you have the logo.

It's also why for many people D&D equals RPG. Its "geniuses" have often been used in other games...

But those things existed in roleplaying long before D&D. Cops and robbers you had fake locations, and assumed how many times the robber could be shot at before caught (HP). even continuing a game form the day before you had levels because your "character" got smarter at what he was doing. Even classes are represented slightly in that you had different type of robbers you could be, and even different types of cops.

The rules weren't written down in a book, but these are the things that was made into D&D from much older forms of role-playing. So they are not even something that began with D&D, just written down for it.

Cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, freeze tag. The same elements are all there. That is why you really cannot patent an RPG, because nothing in it is new, not even the way it is combined. They are all old ideas that had been done for ages and just written down in some manner.
 

But those things existed in roleplaying long before D&D. Cops and robbers you had fake locations, and assumed how many times the robber could be shot at before caught (HP). even continuing a game form the day before you had levels because your "character" got smarter at what he was doing. Even classes are represented slightly in that you had different type of robbers you could be, and even different types of cops.

The rules weren't written down in a book, but these are the things that was made into D&D from much older forms of role-playing. So they are not even something that began with D&D, just written down for it.

Cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, freeze tag. The same elements are all there. That is why you really cannot patent an RPG, because nothing in it is new, not even the way it is combined. They are all old ideas that had been done for ages and just written down in some manner.
Your "error" seems to be assuming that any fictional location equals dungeon. It does not.

It has been quite some time since I played "Cops & Robbers", and I never had imagined something that I'd describe as a dungeon as far as I can remember. But maybe I played a strangely house-ruled version of "Cops & Robbers". (I still remember getting annoyed by one of my friends because he decided to play a different character with an annoying meme... Ah, elementary school, what crazy little bits I still remember of you!) :D
 


Frankenstein, Nosferatu, any of those movies that people emulated in some sort of game acting out the movie, those would be dungeons. You just view your surroundings as being the Doctor's lab and trying to escape from his monster. Trying to to find or escape from Dracula's crypt.

"Cop and robbers" took many forms and adopted many movies when they came out. So dungeon is subjective to the version you played of the game where people chase after each other pretending to be something else.

I think even Gary mentioned it as an idea point from where D&D came from and how D&D was born from those older games that were not stick ball and such, but the games that involved more of the imagination.

That means they are not defining only to D&D.

I am older now, so the memory does fail me at times, so don't know exactly where it was all said or by whom, but know these things did exist prior to D&D as listed about in other games. Maybe not all forms as widespread as others, but they were there.
 

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