Sacred cows: Where's the beef?

[Irda Ranger]

So my question is: What would they have to take away before it wouldn't be D&D anymore in your eyes? Humans? The d20? Magic?

Before I played 4E I would have said: "Hit Points, Class Levels, Attack vs. AC, Medieval-or-less technology, and Vancian magic."

But like a fish yanked out of water, playing 4E has caused me to realize there were additional elements of what D&D is (to me). I just didn't realize it before. I'll now add to the list:

1. Combat simple and "fudgy" enough to be played entirely in the mind. A battlemat isn't even helpful unless the room's dimensions can't be easily described.

2. Martial classes (Fighter, Thief, Barbarian, etc.) who are purely Martial, and what magic they have is solely from items. This is thematically important to me.

3. 1st level characters that are just one stepped removed from bildungsroman. "Character background is levels 1 to 4."

By that definition, 4E isn't D&D to me. 3E probably wasn't either, but I didn't play it enough to find out. They're still decent games, and of course they were/are D&D in the sense that "WotC says so and they own the trademark", but I guess D&D "Platonic essence" (IMO, as all Plotonic ideals are) never escaped AD&D's demise.

 

[Desdichado]

Really; the only thing that they could take away from D&D to make it not-D&D is the name D&D.

I'm not one of those guys who plays exclusively D&D, and I wouldn't even say that D&D is my favorite RPG. I wouldn't even say that D&D is my favorite fantasy RPG. So maybe I'm more tolerant of changes to some "core concepts" of D&D than others might be, but there you have it. In fact, a lot of what some of you would say, "that makes it not D&D" is exactly what I'd like to see D&D have so that I can say, "now D&D is moving up closer to being my favorite fantasy RPG."

So... yeah. For me, the only thing that makes D&D no longer be D&D is the current publishers of the game literally changing the name to something else. But in my case, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I went through a phase were D&D was a pejorative, after all, and even now there's plenty about the game (of every edition) that I don't like.

 

[The_Gneech]

Thing is, for me, there's always been more than one D&D: the D&D I loved, and the the D&D I hated.

The D&D I loved had weird Gygaxian prose, giant frogs leaping out of the swamp at the moathouse, and some poor schlub being yanked into a dark hole by ghouls.

The D&D I hated had lots of random and often contradictory rulesets cobbled together, characters defined almost entirely by their equipment once they passed 3rd level or so, and an extremely predictable "goblins and kobolds, then orcs, then bugbears and gnolls, then minotaurs, then mind flayers, then giants, etc." progression that was pretty much guaranteed to be the same from campaign to campaign.

They were of course, the same game. So it's a tough question to answer.

What I wanted from 3E, and sorta-but-not-completely got, was something that could support the things I loved about earlier D&D, but with a "modern," unified and flexible ruleset. It wasn't exactly right, but it was close enough that I was happy with it.

What I wanted from 4E, and didn't get at all, was something that continued the good trends of 3E, while stripping out a lot of the overhead. What I got instead was tieflings and dragonborn shooting off fireworks and straightjackets for classes. -.-

-The Gneech

 

[frankthedm]

The Far Realms aren't part of D&D.

Far realm has been with D&D pretty much since G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief back in early 1E. Thankfully 4E HAS made the such material much more common, going so far as to have that material invade a PHB1 class. Goes a long way to making sure the players understand that there will always be things out there that can make them go *squish* even when they reach Epic potency.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just in the demographic that wotc was aiming at with the inclusion of the far realms in the 4E Core. I can understand it coyuld be very disheartening to have one's Hero of Daring-Do be devoured by a Sentient pile of multidimensional goo.

I think Squid Ice Cream is a better food analogy for the far realm than a Bocca Burger.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I've run all editions of D&D except 2nd, and I at least played that a few times. All of them feel like D&D to me. I suspect that there are several other games without the D&D brand that would also feel like D&D to me, but I haven't tried them.

In contrast, I ran a Fantasy Hero game set in the Forgotten Realms, for many years. It was deliberately meant to feel like D&D, but without classes. Don't get me wrong--it was a lot of fun, and certainly D&D-ish in ways. But it wasn't D&D.

So I'd say that the bare minimum for D&D feel is leveled classes, set in a gonzo world. The exact parameters of "gonzo" are subject to debate, but there has got to be something about the world that dovetails with the classes. After that, I'm not sure that there is any single element that is necessary, but certainly the more one gets away from the classic races, the six ability scores, d20, etc, the harder it gets to stay D&D.

 

[Wormwood]

I'm definitely not system monogamous, so I have a fairly high threshhold for this sort of thing.

I'd say it stops being 'D&D' once you lose Dungeon Master, gold pieces, Armor Class, rolling a d20 to hit, and (most importantly) killing monsters for loot.

Everything else is up for grabs I guess.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Really; the only thing that they could take away from D&D to make it not-D&D is the name D&D.

Really?

"Mom! Have you seen my bat and glove? The guys and I are going out to play D&D. Aw, crap, it's raining, we can't play!"

 

[justanobody]

Really?

"Mom! Have you seen my bat and glove? The guys and I are going out to play D&D. Aw, crap, it's raining, we can't play!"

But can't you play cricket indoors?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I started with 2e, went back to 1e, then jumped on to 3 and 4e. I have to say it all felt like D&D...Vampire never did...Rifts, Shadowrun, LOR never did eaither...Role-master and Warhammer didn't really feel like D&D eaither.

However NERO (LARP) felt like a live action D&D...but Pandemonum, Cro, and Lion (Also LARPs) didn't...

So I will take the ones that felt 'right' and see what they have in common...

Level advancment
Fantasy stories that mix Tolken and Final Fantasy with a twist of Cuthulu
Kobolds
Goblins
Orcs
Magic Missle
Crazy adventures that make you think the designers are sadiests (Bruce Cordell I am looking at you)
Hanging out with the guys pretending to be elves resuceing princess



I have played alot of games in the last 15 years. I can say D&D is a feeling around the table that can't be put into words. I feel sorry for people that say X edition isn't d&d to them, it feels like they lost some of the magic in the world. I am playing and running 4e and playing 3e right now. If next week one of the guys said lets play basic D&D my answer would be simple..."I call being the elf"

 

[Irda Ranger]

I feel sorry for people that say X edition isn't d&d to them, it feels like they lost some of the magic in the world.

Hey, no worries mate! No one should feel bad for anyone, since the "Old-Rulebooks-Must-Burn Gestapo" was never implemented. Plus, "non-D&D editions" can still be fun (like Star Wars SE) without being D&D.

I am playing and running 4e and playing 3e right now. If next week one of the guys said lets play basic D&D my answer would be simple..."I call being the elf"

See my sig. Really. I need players.