Sacred Cows You Hope Die?

[Fifth Element]

I just don't get this "hate" for rolling abilties - many people seem to think it's either a cheatfest or produces lame ducks.

No hate, just consistency. Nothing else in creating a 1st-level character is random. You pick your skills and feats, you choose your class and your race, for crying out loud. It makes little sense that you can choose to be a dwarf, but can't choose to have a 16 Strength. Your skill points are fixed, your hit points (at 1st level) are determined solely by class. Height, weight and age are random, but those have no mechanical effects (if you roll randomly, you can't roll high enough to be middle-aged).

I also find it odd than many of the same people who decry rolling abilties for producing characters with "broken" high ability scores also seem to support more splat powers for the characters in each edition. On one hand having an 18 ability score is overpowering, but on the other having 27 salient magical abilities for a 3rd level commoner is "kewl".

That's an ad hominem argument, on top of a straw man.

 

[Thurbane]

Wasn't I already on your ignore list?

Debate team buzzwords aside (and judicious snipping of smileys that meant it was tongue in cheek), rolling for abilties isn't innately better or worse than point buy/array, just a different style. I can respect that some people don't like the random aspect of rolling - but I don't generally see that kind of "live and let live" mindset returned to fans of rolling.

Just as an aside, where do people draw the line at removing the random element from D&D? Is it with character creation, or does it extend into all areas of die rolling - to hit, damage, saves etc. Not trying to flamebait, just genuinely curious - as someone who has rolled up characters for 20+ years, I'm just trying to get my head around the other school of thought.

 

[Wayside]

You of course realize that the direct reply to that would be that those who desperately want to change D&D into some other game should go and find that game on the big market of 30 years of game development, and leave D&D to those who actually love to play it, right?

And the direct reply to this is that those who actually love to play D&D have nothing to worry about, since the D&D they love to play is already out there and will not cease to exist on account of a new edition.

 

[F4NBOY]

Holy cows I want slaughtered?

-Auto hits and auto misses.

Please don't shoot me!!!!

 

[Dragonblade]

Sacred cows to kill:

This started in Eberron and carried over to SW Saga. No action points based on level! If you must have action points, have a refresh mechanic that does not require leveling up.

Get rid of random HP per level, just have flat per class total.

Level loss. Come up with alternate mechanic for Energy Drain; the most ridiculous and broken metagame monster ability of all time. You should NEVER HAVE TO LEVEL DOWN YOUR PC!!! EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Fifth Element]

Wasn't I already on your ignore list?

I thought so too. Must be a bug in the system.

Just as an aside, where do people draw the line at removing the random element from D&D? Is it with character creation, or does it extend into all areas of die rolling - to hit, damage, saves etc. Not trying to flamebait, just genuinely curious - as someone who has rolled up characters for 20+ years, I'm just trying to get my head around the other school of thought.

The line is character creation; everything I mentioned in my last post was with respect to character creation. Under this view, random elements in playing the game enhance the game, while random elements in character creation simply provide frustration.

 

[Fifth Element]

Level loss. Come up with alternate mechanic for Energy Drain; the most ridiculous and broken metagame monster ability of all time. You should NEVER HAVE TO LEVEL DOWN YOUR PC!!! EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good god, how did I forget that one? This cow should definitely be put down. It's a relic from another age.

 

[JVisgaitis]

But, you know...your 4E PHB mock-up is spot on for me. So we can't be THAT far apart in tastes in the end. Which is why I'd like to hand that question back to you, if you don't mind.

We're not far off at all. Being at work, I can't sugar coat all my posts and I may tend to be a bit short at times. When I'm home like now I can better get across what I mean as I have more time. So I'm sorry about that.

Anyhow, the reason why I was annoyed with your post is because there are a lot of people out there who complain about D&D as it is and should just play another system. I abhor those people and would never even suggest that D&D be gutted.

My sacred cows? Here goes and I'll try and be a bit less long-winded.

The Dice- D&D isn't D&D without a d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, and d20.
Classes- Other people like classless systems. Not me. You can certainly do classless with d20, but not in my D&D thank you very much. And I better see a Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue in every version of the game.
Mechanics- d20 is used for attack rolls. Higher is always better. AC, HP, Saving Throws, and Levels are paramount and must stay.
Magic- Spells are broken down in levels. There is a split in magic between Arcane vs. Divine. Whether its Vancian or not, I don't care. Just give me magic. And of course we need boat loads of magic items.
Monsters- We still need monsters especially the ones that were product identity in 3.5's SRD.
Gameplay- Needs to be the same. Travel with a group of misfits, kill monsters, take their stuff. The game doesn't rely on miniatures or other visual supplements, but they can still be used to enhance gameplay.

For me, that's really it. Now when writing Violet Dawn a lot of these things were the first on my list to change, but as core D&D this needs to be in there.

Stuff that I could care less about and what I mean when I say don't prior editions hold you back:

Half Races- For the love of god let statistics for them die. You want to play a high-elf? Fine. Your stats are those of either human or elf. You choose. Your character's looks are up to you.
Magic Missile- Any spell that auto hits at 1st-level is broken. And having a Brooch of Shielding repel it? Dumb. Can we get a mulligan on magic missile please?
+1, +2, etc. Magic Weapons- Lame. My magic sword should shoot lightning or be wreathed in flames. If you want simple + items make them items of quality.
Spells- Detect Evil, Locate Object, etc. See ya spells that ruin games. Save or die effects? Bye bye.
Random Generation- You want to "roll your character" the old fashioned way with ability scores, hit points, and gold? Fine have at it. But don't require it. I want point buy and fixed hit points in the book. In fact, keep both as some people like that.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Sacred cows to kill:

This started in Eberron and carried over to SW Saga. No action points based on level! If you must have action points, have a refresh mechanic that does not require leveling up.

Get rid of random HP per level, just have flat per class total.

Level loss. Come up with alternate mechanic for Energy Drain; the most ridiculous and broken metagame monster ability of all time. You should NEVER HAVE TO LEVEL DOWN YOUR PC!!! EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweet Jesus yes to all of the above.

 

[Psion]

Get rid of random HP per level, just have flat per class total.

How'd I miss that one.

Yeah. Flat HP, thankyew!

(My players should keep their randomizers handy and leave their calculators at home when it comes to stats, though.)