Sacred Cows You Hope Die?

[Ty]

D&D

I vote for the return of sacred cows!

When dwarves had d8 hit points; when elves all knew a spell or two; when... aw heck, who am I kidding.

The sacred cows all being proposed for killing are what made D&D... well, D&D. I remember a game a long time ago with no alignments, point buys, any race you want to be, any time period, yada yada. It's called GURPS folks. You only need to buy one book too.

 

[Lanefan]

Once the herd of cows is all dead, you'll have fine steaks for a while...and then...nothing.

Take out random generation and hit points, you'll take away from the excitement. With excitement, however, sometimes comes disappointment....that's just the way it goes.

Take out death and level drain, and what's left for a player to fear? (and don't respond with "item loss", because items *should* be lost almost as fast as they're acquired) Or should seriously bad things Never Happen to characters?

Take out everything else that's been suggested so far and...would there be a game left?

Lanefan

 

[outsider]

II just don't get this "hate" for rolling abilties - many people seem to think it's either a cheatfest or produces lame ducks. Neither have been the case in my experience. Sure, some characters might be moderately better mechanically than others, but even with arrays or point buy, the guys who are better rules lawyers and min/maxers will have significantly more powerful characters than those less book savvy anyway.

I hate rolling for abilities because I should have total control over the definition of my own character. Character creation is important. Your character is supposed to be something you enjoy playing both mechanically and personality wise. If you get a bad set of rolls, you are going to be stuck with them for the duration of your character, which, depending on the campaign, could be a year or more. A bad set of rolls can basically cripple both the mechanics and personality of the character you had in mind, and I tend to have something very specific in mind on both counts when I'm building a character. I'll often think about a character for 3 days or more before committing it to paper. I hate suddenly finding out that I can't be the character I've spent the last 3 days getting attached to.

Note that "a bad set of rolls" doesn't even neccessarily mean low rolls to me. I have almost as much of an issue with the dice handing me 3 17s as I do with them handing me nothing over a 12. I usually don't want to play a character that is enormously naturally gifted in several areas. All I want is to play the character I had in mind. Why should I have to get permission from the dice to play it?

Just as an aside, where do people draw the line at removing the random element from D&D? Is it with character creation, or does it extend into all areas of die rolling - to hit, damage, saves etc. Not trying to flamebait, just genuinely curious - as someone who has rolled up characters for 20+ years, I'm just trying to get my head around the other school of thought.

Interesting question. I don't think I'd like D&D without randomness, but I generally try to avoid randomness when at all possible. I use take 10 and take 20 whenever I can. I play alot of rogues, and I always take skill mastery at level 10 just so I don't have to hear a dm say "no, you can't take 10 on this roll". I'm not sure where I draw the line, I just know I haven't hit it yet. Rolling is fun. I just don't trust the dice. If that makes any sense.

 

[Greatwyrm]

The only things I've absolutely despised in every edition of D&D are any mechanics that reduce or remove levels and/or experience. I mean, to a degree I could understand level loss as a consequence of dying. I didn't like it, but I understood. Plain old level draining attacks just blow.

In 2e, you could build a kobold, within the DMG guidelines, that could level drain and be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of 300xp.

In 3e, monsters are still more art than science. You can give a zombie a level draining attack and probably be justified in giving it a CR of 3, maybe 4. That's a CR 3 monster that has about a 1 in 4 chance of permanently draining a level from a third level character (I admit a good amount of hand-waving on that math).

At least we know xp for item creation is gone.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

sacred cows that need killing


Classes
level based advancement
Alignment
random stat generation
Vancian Magic


Xp per gold piece was finally killed but XP for killing monsters should be too. It only encourages hack&slash with no reward for roleplay. XP should be given based on how the players deal with situations (including combat) and on the furtherance of the Story.

D&D should evolve beyond its wargame roots and into the Roleplaying game it is.

Over my dead character's body. There are plenty of other games for Thespians.

 

[danzig138]

And just for the record, I'm not trying to be rude. Just having a bad day.

Then you should wait to post until you aren't having a bad day - having a bad day isn't a good reason to be rude.

The only thing I'd like to see go is level loss. And maybe the magic system. I've never been a huge fan of it, but it doesn't bother me either. It's a bit of a pain to explin to new players though.

I use random ability score generation (3d6 in order usually), and random hit point generation. Fixed hit points per level? Bah! Not in my games. Except for 1st level. And I tend to think that your 1st level hit points should be determined by an average of your ability scores (taking the view that they represent luck, and all the other factors some people say they represent), maybe modified by class.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Then you should wait to post until you aren't having a bad day - having a bad day isn't a good reason to be rude.

Didn't you get smacked down by the mods for being rude in another thread?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Stuff that I could care less about and what I mean when I say don't prior editions hold you back:

Half Races- For the love of god let statistics for them die. You want to play a half-elf? Fine. Your stats are those of either human or elf. You choose. Your character's looks are up to you.

Agree to a certain point. It would certainly make it easier if half-races choose to adopt the traits of either parent race. One the other hand, it can really offer options for playing a fringe character with some interesting background.

Magic Missile- Any spell that auto hits at 1st-level is broken. And having a Brooch of Shielding repel it? Dumb. Can we get a mulligan on magic missile please?

You know, that would be one of those spells that I could see as one of the announced "once per encounter" abilities, or even "once per round"...changed to "Touch Attack", though. Would mean the wizard doesn't have to lug around a crossbow all the time anymore, he is his own crossbow.

+1, +2, etc. Magic Weapons- Lame. My magic sword should shoot lightning or be wreathed in flames. If you want simple + items make them items of quality.

Agree to an extent. I don't mind the higher +X weapons...some magic that makes the weapon support the combat prowess of the character. Wouldn't be sad to see them go either, though, if replaced with something else to the same effect.

Spells- Detect Evil, Locate Object, etc. See ya spells that ruin games. Save or die effects? Bye bye.

Agree to an extent. Certain spells should stay for internal consistency alone...if there is magic, and folks who can develop new spells, there's bound to be a wizard who kept misplacing his door key, crystal ball, etc...and who at some point got sick of that and developed Locate Object, which got found 100 years later when a group of adventurers raided his empty castle. The Alignment stuff can go the way of the dodo, though. It's a handy tool, but nothing deal-breaking. And easy to rule back in anyway.

Random Generation- You want to "roll your character" the old fashioned way with ability scores, hit points, and gold? Fine have at it. But don't require it. I want point buy and fixed hit points in the book. In fact, keep both as some people like that.

Totally. I'm a "random fan", but the point-buy should be in there for sure. Alternative options to D&D rules should be endorsed for all those cases where they indeed offer an alternative, or where they fit the flavour of the setting in question.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Then you should wait to post until you aren't having a bad day - having a bad day isn't a good reason to be rude.

Huh, let it go, hmm? He apologized, and it was no biggie. No need to razz him very much later...and steer this thread into a minefield.

 

[Baby Samurai]

We've been rolling for nigh on 20 years, and have no plans for changing now.

I have also rolled for ability scores going on 20 years (started with 1st edition in 1987), but one of the problems that arises is when one player wants to be a monk and rolls 14, 13, 12, 11, 11, 9, and the dude who wants to run a fighter rolls 18, 17, 17, 15, 13, 11.

…Know what I mean?